Can You Empower Claws of the Beast?

[KarinsDad]

I think we can fall back on part of Hyp's "rule of thumb": If the spell is just reminding us of a rule elsewhere (the rule on how much damage a masterwork medium-sized shortsword does), then that variable effect isn't really part of the spell, and so can't be empowered (or maximized, etc).

I think Hyp's rule of thumb handles the vast majority of situations correctly.

 

[KarinsDad]

Now, you're not being consistent. The d% is undeniably numeric and it's variable. If it weren't variable, then why is a roll even made? I can't even begin to understand how you could say that it's neither numeric nor variable.

He is not being inconsistent.

Reincarnate, like many other spells and powers (e.g. Confusion, Insanity), has a variable numeric table to determine the effect, but the variable numeric portion is not the effect. It is the selection of the effect.

The numbers themselves are not the effect, they merely determine what the effect will be, hence, they are not a variable numeric effect, instead they are a variable numeric selection.

 

[Someone]

The only Polymorph Subschool spell that actually has the creature information within it is the 9th level DragonShape spell which cannot be Empowered or Maximized anyway.

Of course it can. Greater Rods of metamagic cheese. And various feats in PHB II and Complete Mage.

In any case, i wouldn't base the decision about if an effect can be empowered or not based on the fact that the bok had enough space in it to list redundant information or not.

 

[KarinsDad]

(Prismatic Spray, now, is an interesting one. The colour of the beam that strikes an opponent is not a numeric effect. But the table also determines whether one or two beams strike, and that is a numeric effect. So I would say that a roll of 4, say, with an Empowered Prismatic Spray would not have us consulting the result for a 6; rather, the Con damage of the green beam would be Empowered. A roll of 8, however, would result in three beams (2 x 1.5) striking the target. (Any of the other rolls would result in 1 x 1.5, rounded down to 1.) Similarly, a Maximized Prismatic Spray would result in 2 beams striking, but they would not automatically both be Violet.)

I think you over analyzed this and are mistaken.

Prismatic Spray has:

1 effect
2 effect
3 effect
4 effect
5 effect
6 effect
7 effect
8 reroll

The result of number 8 is not a variable numeric effect. It is a selection change. The "struck by two rays" portion of it does sound like an effect, but there is nothing "variable" about that. You do the mechanics of selecting twice.

The 1-7 roll that occurs twice is not an effect. It is a selection roll, just like the original 1-8 roll was a selection roll.

Nothing about the 1-7 roll is a "variable numeric effect" (it is a variable numeric selection), hence, rolling an 8 still cannot be Empowered.

 

[KarinsDad]

Of course it can. Greater Rods of metamagic cheese. And various feats in PHB II and Complete Mage.

Yup. It was late at night and I didn't think about that when I wrote that.

In any case, i wouldn't base the decision about if an effect can be empowered or not based on the fact that the bok had enough space in it to list redundant information or not.

Agreed.

 

[RigaMortus2]

These two statements don't seem dischordant to you?



If I change fireball so that it is now "electric ball", and yet use no metamagic feat to do it, is it not a different spell?

No. Technically it is still a Fireball, just with the electricty descriptor. If you were a Wizard and did this, you wouldn't suddenly have a spell called "electricity ball" in your spellbook, would you? No, you'd still have the fireball spell.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Flame Blade damage changes with caster level; it's not based on caster size, for example. The damage is based on the spell's power, so it can be empowered.

Claws of the Beast damage also scales with manifester level. The only difference is, you need to spend more points (ie augment it). But augmentation/spending more points is increased and limited by your manifester level.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Hmmmmm.....

If we changed Claws of the Beast to be a arcane spell, and then folded the augmentation into the spell as a increase per caster level......

...I still think I'd have trouble allowing it to be empowered. Most of that reluctance is based on the description of the "spell": the phrase "You gain two natural attacks with your claws" implies a stock weapon is created (claws), and weapons should do a range of damages, based on how it hits, i.e. a damage roll.

Do you have access to the Spell Compendium? If so, check out Flame Whips (p 95). If not, look here

FLAME WHIPS
Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Effect: Flaming whips
Duration: 1 round/level (D)

Your forelimbs transform into flaming whips. You gain two melee touch attacks with a 15-foot reach that each deal 6d6 points of damage. Attacks with these flaming whips replace any natural attacks you had with those limbs.
While this spell is in effect, you cannot cast spells with material components, nor can you carry items with your forelimbs. Any items worn on your forelimbs cease functioning while the spell is active.

Empowerable/Maximizable???

 

[Hypersmurf]

Nothing about the 1-7 roll is a "variable numeric effect" (it is a variable numeric selection), hence, rolling an 8 still cannot be Empowered.

To decide whether something is a variable numeric effect, I look for a question that starts with "How many?", that's answered with "It depends on the roll."

"How many points of damage does Cure Minor Wounds heal?" "1". Numeric, but not variable.
"How many points of damage does Cure Light Wounds heal?" "It depends on the roll". Numeric, and variable.
"How many images does Mirror Image produce?" "It depends on the roll". Numeric, and variable.
"What form does Reincarnate return me as?" "It depends on the roll. Variable, but not numeric.
"How many rays is a creature struck by?" "It depends on the roll." The number of rays from the Prismatic Spray that strike each creature is numeric and variable. Depending on what is rolled, that number might be one or two.

If the spell stated "Each creature is struck by a number of rays equal to 1d8-6 (minimum 1 ray); determine the colour of each ray by rolling 1d7", would you agree that the number of rays is a variable numeric effect?

-Hyp.

 

[Dracorat]

Yes, although Im not sure how I'd empower such a thing. Probably (1d8 * 1.5) - 6