Can you move->stealth->attack>

[Contents May Vary]

Are you allowed to do the following:

* Use a Move Action to move more than 2 squares to an area with cover adjacent to an enemy target.
* Use a Minor Action to hide against that enemy target.
* Use a Standard Action to attack that enemy target, and you have combat advantage.

The rule in the PHB that's confusing me is: "Stealth: Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily".

Well, I'm not associating it with any action - I'm using it as a minor action. If I were to use it with the move action, I'd take -5 to my stealth check.

If you're NOT allowed to just use stealth on its own, you could just say "in that case I'll stealthily drop this small pebble on the ground as a minor action" which would be silly, so I assume that this is all ok...

 

[jaelis]

The idea is that you would hide as part of the move action... I don't think you can get around the penalty that way.

 

[Contents May Vary]

Hmm yes, but the rules state: ""Stealth: Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily".

So, the action I'm trying to perform stealthily is dropping a very small pebble on the ground. This is a minor action. If I succeed, I'm stealthed!

 

[jaelis]

Well, to make your point more clearly, note that dropping a pebble is a free action, not a minor action. But that doesn't invalidate your argument.

I would say that whatever you are doing has to be something that you can try to do stealthily, at the DMs discretion.

There is a nice thread on gleemax with a CustServ response that I think addresses this point, but of course they are down now, so I might be remembering wrong.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Hmm yes, but the rules state: ""Stealth: Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily".

So, the action I'm trying to perform stealthily is dropping a very small pebble on the ground. This is a minor action. If I succeed, I'm stealthed!

No, then you succeed in dropping a pebble stealthily. Anyone who doesnt succeed against your stealth check doesnt know that you dropped a pebble; at least thats how I read it.

In order to become "stealthed" AKA hide, you just have to hide. You have to make sure no one sees you hide as per the perception check, and you have to make sure no one can see you, as per maintaining cover.

IMO in order to hide from someone who knows where you are you must leave where you are in a way such that the target doesnt know you left, nor where you went. If you are currently unhidden, in order to become hidden you must move stealthily (ie, a move action with a stealth roll) to a place that satisfies the requirements of being able to hide (cover, concealment, etc.). If you succede then anyone who you succeded against doesnt know where you are, and you are now hidden.

If at any such time after you become hidden you then become unhidden, such as by attacking or shouting, etc. then you must again leave where you are in a way such that the target doesnt know you left, or where you went. Now this new space could potentially be a square right next to you, but it must also satisfy the requirements for hiding (cover, concealment, etc.).

This is all oc course how I have interpreted Stealth, but it seems to work.

 

[jaelis]

Dang, I know what it is... your question is a bit misleading. I don't think you would take the -2 penalty in the situation you describe anyway, since you aren't trying to move while hiding. So you can drop the pebble or not, it doesn't make any difference.

 

[Contents May Vary]

It's a bit weird - because if you apply that same argument to moving, then you would say that you managed to move stealthily, but that applies only to the movement. After you have finished moving, you are no longer stealthed, since it only applied to the move.

This is clearly not the case, because the rules explicitly say that you gain combat advantage on a successful stealth.

So why wouldn't that also apply to, say, stealthily drawing a weapon?

I definitely agree that this is against the spirit of the rules, so as a DM I won't allow that... but it does cause some confusion. Clarification would be good.

For example, suppose I am ALREADY standing, unstealthed, in a square with cover adjacent to a target enemy. How can I become stealthed in order to attack that target with combat advantage?

Do I make a move of zero to become stealthed and then attack? Do I stealthily draw a weapon (a minor action) and then attack? Or what?

 

[ForbidenMaster]

It's a bit weird - because if you apply that same argument to moving, then you would say that you managed to move stealthily, but that applies only to the movement. After you have finished moving, you are no longer stealthed, since it only applied to the move.

This is clearly not the case, because the rules explicitly say that you gain combat advantage on a successful stealth.

So why wouldn't that also apply to, say, stealthily drawing a weapon?

No, the rules dont say that. The rules say that you gain combat advantage against an enemy that isnt aware of you.

Also, one must make the distinction between moving stealthy and hiding. If the goal is to hide, then you are doing that action stealthily. If you just want to move stealthily, then your above scenario would be in play. Think of it as the difference between move silently and hide in 3.5.

Personally, I think that both can be applied in the same role. If you wish to hide you must escape notice and get to a hiding place. In order to do that you must move stealthily. If you want you could roll them as separate checks, but personally I think that its simpler to just use one roll for both the escaping notice by moving to a hiding spot, and then attempting to continue to avoid notice.

For example, suppose I am ALREADY standing, unstealthed, in a square with cover adjacent to a target enemy. How can I become stealthed in order to attack that target with combat advantage?

Do I make a move of zero to become stealthed and then attack? Do I stealthily draw a weapon (a minor action) and then attack? Or what?

I would rule that you couldnt become stealth in your current square because you cant escape notice. If there was another piece of cover near you then you could attempt to escape notice and move there, essentially causing your target to think you are still in the old square.

Essentially I have been ruling it that if you are unhidden you must move to another square to become hidden. You make one stealth roll and that determins your ability to escape notice that you are moving to a new square, and your ability to hide in that new square.

 

[jaelis]

Once you are hidden, you remain hidden until you attack or draw attention to yourself. So if you move stealthily (and maintain the requirements to hide) you would stay hidden.

If you were in a position to hide (you have cover say) but for some reason haven't been hiding, then sure, you could hide as part of drawing your weapon. You just have to crouch down behind whatever is giving you cover, I don't see a problem with that.

 

[Contents May Vary]

If you were in a position to hide (you have cover say) but for some reason haven't been hiding, then sure, you could hide as part of drawing your weapon. You just have to crouch down behind whatever is giving you cover, I don't see a problem with that.

Well if that was the case, I COULD do the following:

* Move (unstealthily) to a spot with cover.
* Stealth (by crouching, while doing some random minor action).
* Attack with combat advantage.

But is this really right?