Can you move->stealth->attack>

[Xorn]

This discussion should go to "Stealth In Combat", the thread I would like to apologize for ever creating on EnWorld.Org, as I fear it was like breaking the first seal, and unleashed an uncontrollable, ever-growing beast.

 

[Ziana]

It's cool Xorn; I think between the player debates and feedback from CSRs, we're getting a pretty good picture of how stealth is supposed to work.

 

[Mistwell]

This discussion should go to "Stealth In Combat", the thread I would like to apologize for ever creating on EnWorld.Org, as I fear it was like breaking the first seal, and unleashed an uncontrollable, ever-growing beast.

I actually think it's a bad idea to move all threads that touch on the subject of stealth to one big stealth thread. Sometimes it's good to have a separate thread devoted to an aspect of stealth, like attacking, or moving, or using a power.

When people search in the future for threads about a specific subject like "Nimble strike and stealth" or "moving before a stealth attack", you don't want them finding just one massive generalized discussion of all aspects of stealth that is so many pages long that it's nearly useless for finding your specific answer.

 

[toxicspirit]

I agree. I was glad to see a new thread on the subject, because to be honest I was kind of intimidated by the other Stealth thread's size. This thread seems to have all the benefits of the other, with less of the 'arguing-back-and-forth' involved.

 

[Contents May Vary]

This discussion should go to "Stealth In Combat", the thread I would like to apologize for ever creating on EnWorld.Org, as I fear it was like breaking the first seal, and unleashed an uncontrollable, ever-growing beast.

Hehe yeah I've read that now. Can I say "Can of Worms"?

 

[Xorn]

I actually think it's a bad idea to move all threads that touch on the subject of stealth to one big stealth thread. Sometimes it's good to have a separate thread devoted to an aspect of stealth, like attacking, or moving, or using a power.

When people search in the future for threads about a specific subject like "Nimble strike and stealth" or "moving before a stealth attack", you don't want them finding just one massive generalized discussion of all aspects of stealth that is so many pages long that it's nearly useless for finding your specific answer.

My post was meant to be taken tongue-in-cheek. Maybe I should have instead put:

IN BEFORE PAGE 10!

 

[sorites]

You start out down by the creek, beyond which lies a house. Five-foot tall grass covers the ground for 100 feet before opening into a nicely trimmed lawn dotted with small trees. Two guards are on duty. One stands at the front door, while the other leisurely walks the perimeter near the edge of the tall grass.

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Facts about the map:
* Standing in a square of tall grass provides concealment.
* Standing in a square with a small tree provides cover.

Concealment
If you want to stealthily approach the house, you can make a Stealth check as you Move through the tall grass. This is allowed because you have concealment. Your Stealth roll is opposed by the guard's Perception. Since the guards are on duty and actively looking for enemies, they get to make active rolls. The DM might require you to make a Stealth roll for each Move action you take, or he might let you get by with one check as you advance through the tall grass. When you get to the edge of the lawn, you stop in the last square of tall grass. You still have concealment and can remain hidden. The DM may require a new Stealth v. Perception test.

At this point, you cannot move onto the lawn without being seen unless you can maintain cover, concealment, or create a distraction.

Attacking From Behind (Distracted Creature)
Staying in the tall grass, make a Stealth roll and Move around the house so the guard at the front door no longer has line of sight to you. Then wait, hidden, until the patrolling guard makes his way to you. He gets a Perception roll against your last Stealth roll (or the DM may have you roll again). If you remain hidden, wait as he walks by you. When his back is to you and he is walking away from you, make a Stealth check as you Move out of the grass and up behind him. He gets a Perception check to notice this. If you remain hidden, you can attack and have Combat Advantage. You could then spend an Action Point to make a Stealth roll as you Move back into the tall grass. This is allowed because you end your move with concealment.

More than One Observer
Note that this is a form of distraction, since the guard is not in combat and is paying attention in a different direction from you. Further, if there was another guard that you hadn't noticed, maybe watching from the roof, he would automatically see you as soon as you stepped out of the tall grass to attack the patrolling guard. If you had stayed in the tall grass and silently attacked the patrolling guard as he walked by, the DM might have allowed you to make a Stealth roll as part of your attack. The guy you attacked would automatically notice you, but the guy on the roof might not.

Create a Diversion (Distracted Creature)
When you get back around to the front of the house, you can see the guard at the front door. He gets a Perception roll vs. your last Stealth roll. If you move out of the tall grass, the guard will see you because the squares you must cross are empty -- they provide no concealment or cover themselves. You throw a pebble to create a distraction. Make a Bluff roll against the guard's Insight roll. Then, when the guard is looking the wrong direction, make a Stealth roll as you Move to a square with a small tree. If you were unable to end your move in a square that provided cover or concealment, the guard would automatically see you.

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This is right by RAW as near as I can tell. Gotta love little thought excersices like this.

 

[Xorn]

I disagree on making a stealth check with an action point as you move back into the grass--I feel RAW states you have to be in cover/concealment in order to take the stealthy action (moving). As you didn't start in it--no good. Everything I agree with RAW, well... RAI actually, but that's because I'm using my own perversion of RAW since it actually matches up with the tactics of every high stealth creature in the MM.

 

[jaelis]

4) If you succeed, you gain combat advantage against the target.

Don't know if I agree with that one, since the rules only say that you get CA if the target is "unaware" of you. I suppose that's open to interpretation, but to my way of thinking, if someone knows that you are hiding in a particular square, then they are basically aware of you.

But it sounds like a contentious topic, and I don't feel any need for an extended argument right now

 

[sorites]

I disagree on making a stealth check with an action point as you move back into the grass--I feel RAW states you have to be in cover/concealment in order to take the stealthy action (moving). As you didn't start in it--no good.

The way I read it, I can start my turn out in the open. I can then Move into the grass, which grants me concealment, which allows me make a Stealth roll as I end my move. One point of this is so that if someone comes walking around the corner next turn, that person may not see me (he gets a Perception roll vs. my last Stealth roll).

If, instead, someone had been standing there who watched me go into the grass...I want to agree with you, but a strict reading makes me say that I could make a Stealth check in that instance. The guard sees you out in the open. You take a Move action. ending in the tall grass, which grants concealment, which allows you to make a Stealth roll against the guard's Perception roll.

"The rogue sprints across the lawn diving into the tall grass and out of sight. The guard sees only the swaying of the grass. He knows the pesky thief is there somewhere -- he stares intently." The PHB says Perception cannot be retried if failed, unless the situation changes. I'd say you remain hidden from that guard as long as you stay still and he doesn't move closer to you. If you move through the grass and try to remain hidden, the guard will get another Perception roll to spot you.