can you take 10 on a hide check?

[evilbob]

Presumably you make this check when you're actually using the skill, not an indefinite period of time later (except, again, in the case of skills like Forgery that have language specifically precluding that statement).

Right.

And if the Hide check has to precede the Spot check, why must it immediately precede it? Why can't it come minutes or even hours beforehand?

I think you just defeated your own argument.

I have to second Hussar's words: you make the Hide check when it is opposed.

 

[Sunfist]

There are some excellent arguments in this thread, especially by Evilbob and TYPO. I realize that Wizard's own FAQ is not the RAW, but allow me to quote from it. Yes, this is discussing taking a 20, but please, if you read it, I think you'll see it's relevant.

Similarly, if a check’s success or failure depends on another character’s opposed roll, both sides have to roll when that opposition occurs—you can’t take 20 and “save up” the maximum result. If you hide in the bushes to attack a group of orcs that will walk by later, you can’t take 20 on the Hide check, since the success or failure of your Hide check isn’t resolved until the orcs make their Spot checks.

Likewise, you can't take a 10 and "save it up" for when you are spotted. You must roll your hide check when the observer is trying to spot you.

 

[TYPO5478]

Right.

I think you just defeated your own argument.

I can't imagine how, unless your argument is that you don't use the Hide skill when you hide, but rather when someone tries to Spot you (but you've already said that it isn't). My argument is that you make the check when you use the skill, that is, when you actually hide, regardless of whether anyone is looking for you at the moment.

Scenario: I know that you will be walking down the road in about 10 minutes. I decide to jump out and surprise you. I'm wearing camouflaged clothing and I duck down behind some bushes just beside the road and wait for you. If I understand you correctly, your argument says that, at this point, despite being camouflaged and concealed, I'm not "hidden" because you haven't actually walked down the road yet; I can't use my Hide skill because there's no one around to Spot me. My argument says that, because I have concealed myself, I have by definition used my Hide skill and should therefore make a check (thereby setting the DC which you oppose with Spot whenever you approach).

I have to second Hussar's words: you make the Hide check when it is opposed.

And I have to second my own words: how can you possibly oppose something that hasn't happened yet?

Note that it says you don't need to make a check, not that you don't make a check.

An excellent observation.

 

[Sunfist]

I can't imagine how, unless your argument is that you don't use the Hide skill when you hide, but rather when someone tries to Spot you

As I just quoted, that's exactly what the Wizards of the Coast Rules FAQ says you do.

I know that doesn't make as much intuitive sense as making the roll when you actually hide but remember we're not discussing something that makes sense, we're discussing the D20 rules.

 

[SlagMortar]

While it is an interesting discussion in and of itself, I still do not see how the question of when a hide check is made has anything to do with taking 10. Look at the disguise description. It says you can take 10 on spot checks to detect a disguise. The spot check is made at the instance where spotting is opposed by the disguise. Yet is still allows taking 10. Why should hide be any different?

 

[Mistwell]

As I just quoted, that's exactly what the Wizards of the Coast Rules FAQ says you do.

I know that doesn't make as much intuitive sense as making the roll when you actually hide but remember we're not discussing something that makes sense, we're discussing the D20 rules.

You might physically make a roll when it is opposed, for easy playability reasons and so you don't have to keep track of rolls for a long period of time. However, that does not mean that the modifiers and conditions of that roll are fixed at the time you as a player are physically making the roll. If you got into your hiding place when nobody was around, nothing was threatening or distracting you, then you should be allowed to take 10 on the opposed roll when someone does come around.

Playabilty reasons don't change the modifiers and conditions of skill check. "Make both the opposing rolls at once, but use the conditions present when you did the event that requires a skill" is not the same as "use the conditions present when you physically make both opposing rolls at once".

If you make a forgery check in a calm setting, the conditions allow you to take 10. However, you make the physical roll when someone opposes your forgery check. That doesn't suddenly change the conditions that were present when the forging of the document took place. It's not a worse or better forgery because someone is now observing it. Much like hide checks can be, and disguise checks, and some other checks where the event involving a skill can take place before there is someone to oppose the check.

 

[Sunfist]

You might physically make a roll when it is opposed, for easy playability reasons and so you don't have to keep track of rolls for a long period of time. However, that does not mean that the modifiers and conditions of that roll are fixed at the time you as a player are physically making the roll. If you got into your hiding place when nobody was around, nothing was threatening or distracting you, then you should be allowed to take 10 on the opposed roll when someone does come around.

Playabilty reasons don't change the modifiers and conditions of skill check. "Make both the opposing rolls at once, but use the conditions present when you did the event that requires a skill" is not the same as "use the conditions present when you physically make both opposing rolls at once".

If you make a forgery check in a calm setting, the conditions allow you to take 10. However, you make the physical roll when someone opposes your forgery check. That doesn't suddenly change the conditions that were present when the forging of the document took place. It's not a worse or better forgery because someone is now observing it. Much like hide checks can be, and disguise checks, and some other checks where the event involving a skill can take place before there is someone to oppose the check.

Yes, I agree that the rules make it appear as though you could take a 10 when the opposed roles are actually rolled.

The real discussion here is whether or not someone who is trying to avoid being spotted by someone else is distracted.

This is pretty tricky because the person went into hiding when they were not distracted. Though they roll their opposed roll at the time they are spotted, they clearly were not distracted when they went into hiding. (Just like someone might read your forged document when you're hanging over the edge of a cliff, you forged the document in a calm environment, so you can take a 10 on your check at that time, despite the fact that you are hanging over the edge of a cliff.)

Therefore, strictly speaking in terms of the RAW, it looks like you could take a 10 at that time, again, assuming that you were not distracted or threatened when you went into hiding. However that same logic could be applied to taking a 20. You had all the time in the world to set up your ambush spot, so, you should be able to take a 20. Yet, the FAQ clearly states that you can't do this because of the nature of opposed rolls.

Forgery allows you to take a 10, but only because it directly states so in the rules. Otherwise, it wouldn't have to. It would just say 'you make an opposed roll when someone reads your forged document'.

 

[Hussar]

To effectively set the DC (once) for potential future opposing checks.

But, you don't set the DC once. If two people come down the road into my ambush, I make two hide checks, each opposed by individual spot checks.

Note, none of this precludes taking 10. I can certainly take 10 on both hide checks considering that I'm not particularly threatened and have had time to get nicely settled in.

I cannot take 20 on opposed rolls since there are consequences of failure (I'm seen). Similarly, I cannot take 20 early on and store it up.

But, taking 10 is no problem. I'm putting in an average attempt with the assumption that that is good enough. You can take 10 on most checks really. There's nothing really preventing me from taking 10 on a disable device check, other than the fact that it might be a really bad idea.

Scenario: I know that you will be walking down the road in about 10 minutes. I decide to jump out and surprise you. I'm wearing camouflaged clothing and I duck down behind some bushes just beside the road and wait for you. If I understand you correctly, your argument says that, at this point, despite being camouflaged and concealed, I'm not "hidden" because you haven't actually walked down the road yet; I can't use my Hide skill because there's no one around to Spot me. My argument says that, because I have concealed myself, I have by definition used my Hide skill and should therefore make a check (thereby setting the DC which you oppose with Spot whenever you approach).

Actually, you have not used your hide skill at all. Hide skills are an opposed check. Full stop. What was the DC for your hide check? To successfully use a skill, you must beat a target DC.

Some checks are made against a Difficulty Class (DC). The DC is a number (set using the skill rules as a guideline) that you must score as a result on your skill check in order to succeed

Now, it goes on further for opposed checks:

An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result.

So, what was the DC for your hide check? How can you say that you have successfully used a skill for which there is no DC?

If I can hide without a spotter, then I should be able to pick a lock without a lock. Or use diplomacy by myself.

Without a DC, whether a fixed one or an opposed one, you cannot use a skill. What you can do is describe your actions and possibly give yourself a circumstance bonus if and when the skill is used, but, you cannot use a skill until such time as you have a target DC.

 

[Mistwell]

Without a DC, whether a fixed one or an opposed one, you cannot use a skill. What you can do is describe your actions and possibly give yourself a circumstance bonus if and when the skill is used, but, you cannot use a skill until such time as you have a target DC.

So are you saying that forgery that is done in a quiet room gets rolled at the time the forged document is observed, and if the circumstances of that observing are distracting or threatening then you cannot take 10 on the forgery check despite the fact that the forgery itself was done under circumstances that were not threatening or distracting?

 

[Sunfist]

At this point, I think we have strayed away from the real point of contention which is ultimately: Is the person hiding threatened or distracted. Honestly, that seems to be up to the DM and the players. Because there is no rule against taking a 10 in the Hide text or in the Opposed Rolls text, that is ultimately the only rule preventing a Hide check from taking 10.