Can you "Take 20" to Hide?
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Celebrim
Legend
I believe in the FAQ you can take 20 to hide only if you have help from an observer.
Even if that's not true, with suffient time to prepare you can maximize your cover and concealment (trenching tools, artfully arranging loose foliage in a way it doesn't look artfully arranged), making it much easier to succeed at hiding.
Even if that's not true, with suffient time to prepare you can maximize your cover and concealment (trenching tools, artfully arranging loose foliage in a way it doesn't look artfully arranged), making it much easier to succeed at hiding.
The only problem I have with Taking 20 on a Hide is you can't Hide if someone's looking at you, and if no one is looking at you, you can Take 20. So the only time anyone would make an actual Hide Skill check is in those rare occurances when someone looks away from them for one round.
If you can't Take 20 on an Opposed Check, I think Hide is enough of one to qualify. Even though you aren't opposed when you make the check, the Hide roll doesn't mean anything until someone counters it with a Spot. (It doesn't matter what your Hide roll is if no one looks for you.) Hide sets the Spot DC, so its a little hinky to take 20 on it. Likewise, it means people can take 20 on Spot checks (unless interrupted), and at that point you're just comparing skill ranks.
Also, Hide and Spot are ambiguous in how they work. The eye recognizes Shape, Color and Movement, but the skills don't go into that much detail. A 20 represents your perfect Hide, but that's not something you can maintain round to round. In fact, how well you Hide at the outset really doesn't mean anything. Its how well you're Hiding when someone finally looks at you.
From that point of view, there's no point in rolling a Hide check until a someone looks at you. (You can announce you're Hiding whenever, but you don't make the skill check until you're opposing a Spotter.)
If you can't Take 20 on an Opposed Check, I think Hide is enough of one to qualify. Even though you aren't opposed when you make the check, the Hide roll doesn't mean anything until someone counters it with a Spot. (It doesn't matter what your Hide roll is if no one looks for you.) Hide sets the Spot DC, so its a little hinky to take 20 on it. Likewise, it means people can take 20 on Spot checks (unless interrupted), and at that point you're just comparing skill ranks.
Also, Hide and Spot are ambiguous in how they work. The eye recognizes Shape, Color and Movement, but the skills don't go into that much detail. A 20 represents your perfect Hide, but that's not something you can maintain round to round. In fact, how well you Hide at the outset really doesn't mean anything. Its how well you're Hiding when someone finally looks at you.
From that point of view, there's no point in rolling a Hide check until a someone looks at you. (You can announce you're Hiding whenever, but you don't make the skill check until you're opposing a Spotter.)
Li Shenron
Legend
The fact is, the Hide skill was basically design around the ideas of
(1) quickly hide before someone sees you
(2) move under your concealment or partial cover
It's not very supportive of the situation when no one is around, you find a hiding spot and stay there... For example, there are no circumstance bonus/penalties listed for different terrain or foliage etc, not even the concealment section in the PHB lists hide bonuses!
Those 2 situations above are what Hide was designed for, and both those situations are "real-time", which makes no sense to Take 20.
But then I think that a Hide check makes sense to be used also to prepare yourself a hiding place, or setup an ambush. I think however the following should be considered:
- as soon as you move, you are in situation (2) and need to roll another Hide check
- if Take 20 is allowed, it easily means that nearly all ambushes in the game will succeed, since the opponent cannot take 20 in Spot, and since the offender almost always has a higher Hide modifier (otherwise ambush wouldn't be one of his frequent tactics) while the defender rarely has a maxed out Spot
(1) quickly hide before someone sees you
(2) move under your concealment or partial cover
It's not very supportive of the situation when no one is around, you find a hiding spot and stay there... For example, there are no circumstance bonus/penalties listed for different terrain or foliage etc, not even the concealment section in the PHB lists hide bonuses!
Those 2 situations above are what Hide was designed for, and both those situations are "real-time", which makes no sense to Take 20.
But then I think that a Hide check makes sense to be used also to prepare yourself a hiding place, or setup an ambush. I think however the following should be considered:
- as soon as you move, you are in situation (2) and need to roll another Hide check
- if Take 20 is allowed, it easily means that nearly all ambushes in the game will succeed, since the opponent cannot take 20 in Spot, and since the offender almost always has a higher Hide modifier (otherwise ambush wouldn't be one of his frequent tactics) while the defender rarely has a maxed out Spot
You can take 20 in Spot, its just impractical. It's just looking for 2 minutes straight. There's no penalty for not seeing someone, and Spot specifies that you can Try Again. So as long as they don't interrupt you (and its in their interest to do so, unless they aren't trying to ambush and are trying to evade notice, in the case of the lone rogue hiding from a band of warriors), you can keep looking.
Personally, this is why I'm in favor of the One Opposed Roll; it avoids the tedium of one guy taking 20 and five guys rolling constantly to see him, or both taking 20 and comparing skill ranks (at which point its higher score wins, and there's no random chance involved, just circumstance modifiers).
Which is also the problem of five guys trying to ambush five guys, that's 10 d20's being rolled. Someone on the ambushers is going to rathole the roll and give away their position, and someone on the Spotting team is going to roll great and see everything. You're better off rolling a d20 for each side, otherwise the ambushers (skill levels being roughly equal) will never succeed.
Edit for clarification: Taking 20 on a Spot check. Its not something you can do all the time, but if the group was anticipating ambush, that's how I'd do it. Take 20 on a Spot, move to the next covered position, rinse, repeat.
Personally, this is why I'm in favor of the One Opposed Roll; it avoids the tedium of one guy taking 20 and five guys rolling constantly to see him, or both taking 20 and comparing skill ranks (at which point its higher score wins, and there's no random chance involved, just circumstance modifiers).
Which is also the problem of five guys trying to ambush five guys, that's 10 d20's being rolled. Someone on the ambushers is going to rathole the roll and give away their position, and someone on the Spotting team is going to roll great and see everything. You're better off rolling a d20 for each side, otherwise the ambushers (skill levels being roughly equal) will never succeed.
Edit for clarification: Taking 20 on a Spot check. Its not something you can do all the time, but if the group was anticipating ambush, that's how I'd do it. Take 20 on a Spot, move to the next covered position, rinse, repeat.
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billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
I wouldn't allow taking 20 on an opposed check. I would allow someone with that kind of time available to them to gain a circumstance bonus.
Besides, I'm of the opinion (controversial in this forum before) that there is a penalty for failing to hide. You don't just fail to hide, you are seen, which will often preclude any chance to try again with another hide check.
Besides, I'm of the opinion (controversial in this forum before) that there is a penalty for failing to hide. You don't just fail to hide, you are seen, which will often preclude any chance to try again with another hide check.
Steve Jung
Explorer
I would say not. You don't need to make a Hide check until someone can possibly see you, which is an instantaneous thing. Once someone needs to make a Spot check against you, taking more time to hide (required to take 20) is not possible.
Li Shenron
Legend
phindar said:
You could say that perhaps if you're trying to spot something that stays there for 2 minutes, but it's not always possible.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Steve Jung said:
Last time this was discussed, there was an example I found interesting.
There are three goblins sitting in a clearing beside a tent, talking. The PC in the woods wants to sneak to the edge of the clearing to listen to their conversation.
Does he make one hide check, opposed by three spot checks? Or does he make three hide checks each opposed by a single spot check?
Let's say he successfully gets to his position. He listens to the goblins talk for a couple of rounds. Do the goblins get more spot checks while he's staying still doing nothing if they don't specifically take an action to try and see something previously missed? If they do - or if one of them looks around - is the new spot check opposed by the previously rolled hide check, or by a new roll?
Now the tent flap opens, and a hobgoblin comes out to complain that the goblins are making too much noise. Does he get a spot check to notice the hiding PC? If so, is it opposed by the previously rolled hide check, or a new roll?
-Hyp.
