Can you "Take 20" to Hide?

[phindar]

You could say that perhaps if you're trying to spot something that stays there for 2 minutes, but it's not always possible.

Well, if its moving its not Hiding, its Moving Silently; and you'd get to check for that with Listen Checks. Although really, its the same basic deal as Hide/Mv Silent and Spot/Listen oppose each other the same way. (Though once he moves out of position, he's going to get spotted fairly quickly, unless he is out of LOS.)

There are three goblins sitting in a clearing beside a tent, talking. The PC in the woods wants to sneak to the edge of the clearing to listen to their conversation.

Does he make one hide check, opposed by three spot checks? Or does he make three hide checks each opposed by a single spot check?

That's why I think it should be one d20 roll for the Spotters vs one roll for the Hiders. If three characters are trying to Hide, that's three chances to blow the roll, because if one of them is spotted that gives away their position. If three characters are Spotting, that's three chances to roll high, because if one Spotter sees something, he can alert his friends with a free action to speak.

 

[0-hr]

That's why I think it should be one d20 roll for the Spotters vs one roll for the Hiders. If three characters are trying to Hide, that's three chances to blow the roll, because if one of them is spotted that gives away their position. If three characters are Spotting, that's three chances to roll high, because if one Spotter sees something, he can alert his friends with a free action to speak.

I hate to bring it up, but "in real life" isn't it more likely to spot a group of 3 people than an individual? And itsn't it more likely to see something with 3 people looking?

I guess maybe just using the best Spot vs the worst Hide would work, adding circumstance bonuses/penalties for additional folks on each side.

 

[Valesin]

What I could really use would be a reference that clears up the issue for all opposed skill checks. I'm not even sure if you roll one Hide that everyone Spots against, or if you roll a Hide for each person trying to Spot you

Easy enough:

FAQ, 12/20/06, page 21

"Similarly, if a check’s success or failure depends on
another character’s opposed roll, both sides have to roll when
that opposition occurs—you can’t take 20 and “save up” the
maximum result. If you hide in the bushes to attack a group of
orcs that will walk by later, you can’t take 20 on the Hide
check, since the success or failure of your Hide check isn’t
resolved until the orcs make their Spot checks"

Now everyone is going to argue that the FAQ is 'always wrong' or 'totally useless' or whatever, but taking 20 was never intended to be used for opposed rules and this codifies it.

 

[0-hr]

No argument here. Thanks for the reference (I need to grab a newer copy of the FAQ).

EDIT: Though now I'm curious as to (officially) how many Hide/Spot checks are needed for a group of 4 humans sneaking up on 4 orcs

 

[Valesin]

EDIT: Though now I'm curious as to (officially) how many Hide/Spot checks are needed for a group of 4 humans sneaking up on 4 orcs

By RAW it is 4 and 4 (will look for reference), which has always kind of annoyed me. In my experience someone always blows their Hide (or Move Silently) and someone else always gets lucky with their Spot (or Listen), meaning no one ever really sneaks up on/ambushes anyone. I have tried to house rule it but my party has whined since usually the bad guys are at an advantage in a surprise situation (they fight lots of rogues and ninjas).

 

[Jack Simth]

By that same logic (or whatever), a character could take 2 minutes looking around until he was satisfied he was seeing all he could see. That seems to violate the intent of the rules (and leads to the problem of people taking 20 all the time), so you're better off limiting it to the one check for the opposed test.

One minute, not two; attempting to Spot something you previously missed is a Move action. You can do so twice per round (as you could for Hiding, as Hiding is part of a move action under most circumstances).

 

[brehobit]

I think a serious bonus (say +4 or +6) when you have a long time to hide makes sense. And when the PCs did this recently the ranger hid each person (using his roll). Sadly the worg with scent screwed it all up :-(

Mark

 

[Li Shenron]

Well, if its moving its not Hiding, its Moving Silently...

Strictly speaking, it depends on who has a chance to discover you. If he can hear you it's Listen vs Move Silently, if he can see you it's Spot vs Hide, if he can do both then the DM may require both rolls.

But still, Hide is also used to move while hidden and stay hidden, for example to move in the foliage or in the shadows without being noticed by sight.

 

[ThirdWizard]

If you have total cover from someone (and that cover is opaque), you don't have to make a Hide check, right?

 

[Delta]

By RAW it is 4 and 4 (will look for reference), which has always kind of annoyed me. In my experience someone always blows their Hide (or Move Silently) and someone else always gets lucky with their Spot (or Listen), meaning no one ever really sneaks up on/ambushes anyone.

Absolutely. What I do is let Hiders take 10, and Spotters have the high bonus character roll with +2 for each helper (Cooperating), which cuts down on the rolls, and splits the difference in the overwhelming mathematical advantage to Spotters from increasing numbers of rolls.