Can you trip someone standing up?

[0-hr]

Standing up provokes an AoO. Can you use that AoO to trip them?

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I'm posting this here so as not to hijack the original thread where the issue came up. A quick browse through the SRD was unhelpful, so I'm wondering if there is anything clearer written anywhere else.

To me, the answer is a very clear no. You're prone, you stand up, then you are standing. The AoO takes place while you are standing up, but before you have completed standing up so you are still technically prone (and thus not trippable) for the AoO.

Other folks seem fairly convinced the other way, so I'd like to find out if there is anything official, or if there is a good rules-based argument one way or the other.

 

[Ottergame]

Yes.

 

[Ottergame]

As far as an explanation goes, you're interupting their attempt to stand up, you deny them the ability to complete their action, like a spell caster casting a spell. Therefore, they fall back down.

 

[Korak]

TRIP
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.
If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.
Being Tripped (Prone): A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.
Tripping a Mounted Opponent: You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount.
Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

Nothing in there says that the target of a trip attempt cannot already be prone. Common sense (it should be pretty easy to make a trip attempt against someone trying to regain their footing) and the lack of a rule preventing it, make the case for me. By the rules, you can trip on the AOO generated by someone standing from prone, unless clarified elsewhere. The only targeting restrictions in the base rules are based on size category.

With that in mind though, both of the DMs in who's games I play have house ruled that tripping on the AOO provoked by standing is not possible for game balance reasons. That is a consideration, but I suppose it all depends on what bonuses you allow in your game, and how many humanoids your PCs will fight.

 

[Darklone]

Most people "houserule" it that way, though I am not sure it's a houserule. I simply use it to keep two trippers from keeping each other on the floor.

 

[Bauglir]

Strictly under the rules, you're right. An AoO is resolved _before_ the triggering event so the character getting up would provoke an AoO, deal with that AoO, THEN they would actually get up.

 

[James McMurray]

What Bauglir said. AoOs interrupt actions. If you trip someone while interrupting their standing up, all you do is put them on the ground (where they already were). Then they action resolves, and they're on their feet.

 

[Korak]

Strictly under the rules, you're right. An AoO is resolved _before_ the triggering event so the character getting up would provoke an AoO, deal with that AoO, THEN they would actually get up.

Please provide a rules reference for that contention. AOOs are resolved in the middle of the triggering action, after it starts, but before its full results are determined.

An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

If someone in a square I threaten tries to drink a potion, I can make a disarm attempt as my AOO. My opponent's standard action (drink potion), has already begun and cannot be revoked. He has spent the action no matter the results. If I knock the potion out of his hand, when his standard action (drink potion) tries to complete, it will fail because there is no longer a potion to drink. Similarly, if an opponent spends a move action and tries to pass through my threatened squares, I can make a trip attempt on him. His move action is spent and underway when I make the AOO. If I trip him, his move action cannot complete and he is prone. If he has not already taken a standard action for the turn, he may sacrifice it to take a second move action and try to stand up (provoking another AOO if I have combat reflexes and the appropriate dex, or another creature threatens him).

So, the parrallel is this: if I threaten a square in which an opponent is trying to stand, he has spent a move action (stand from prone) and begun to stand when my AOO goes off. If I trip him, he ends up prone and unable to complete his move action (stand from prone) because he was at some point in the middle of regaining his footing and the muscular action used to complete that maneuver is no longer valid if he is again on the ground prone. He may then take a second move action to try again, if he has a move action remaining for the round. However, the smart thing would be to take a move action (5' crawl). It would still provoke an AOO, which could be a trip. However, being prone does not stop crawling (in fact it is sort of a prerequisite), so after the trip attempt AOO, he would still be able to complete his move action (5' crawl), which hopefully takes him out of the threatened area and allows him to stand with another move action with no complications.

 

[Bauglir]

My reference is the very passage you quoted.

"Immediately resolve the AoO, then continue with the character's turn.."

ie AoO gets resolved, THEN the triggering action takes place.

I can see how the language may be interpreted as you have done, but my own interpretation makes more sense to me (in particular under the initiative system, where there is really no such thing as truly simultaneous actions..)

 

[Ottergame]

I still say that you prevent someone from standing. They are in the action of standing, which is prevented, wasting the action. They have to spend ANOTHER move action to stand up.