can you weapon finesse a two handed double weapon?

[Kmart Kommando]

Nothing in the SRD backs up using a double weapon with weapon finesse.

Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Nothing in there says TWFing with a double weapon makes the offhand a light weapon (or finessable weapon).
It says you can TWF them, and here are the penalties for doing so, which are similar to the penalties described in the TWF entry for fighting with a one handed and a light weapon.

"as if" and "just as though" do not translate to "exactly this" but means "similar to this" without reprinting similar text over and over. weapon finesse is never mentioned, nor implied, anywhere in the entries for double weapons and two weapon fighting. making it easier to hit with your offhand is quite against the intent of the 3.5 rules. It tries, though miserably, to simulate weaker offhands.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Nothing in there says TWFing with a double weapon makes the offhand a light weapon.

See Power Attack.

And if you don't read Power Attack as making a double weapon behave like a one-handed weapon and light weapon for any purpose other than Power Attack (or attack penalties associated with Two Weapon Fighting), I assume you'd agree I add 1.5x Str bonus to damage with the primary end even while using both, and get a +4 bonus to Sunder and Disarm checks with either end?

-Hyp.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Cal me stupid, but outside of Hyp's Power Attack example I don't see how the SRD says anything against using weapon finesse with a double weapon.

A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

So, basically that says a player can fight with a double weapon as though it were a one-handed and a light. Right? I mean, that's almost a direct quote...

So, Bob is fighting with a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. Bob has TWF and Weapon Finesse. He gets to attack with his one handed weapon using his STR score and also with his light weapon using his DEX score (assuming he wants to, but if Bob has selected Weapon Finesse as a feat that is a safe assumption). Granted, Bob will take -2 to both the one-handed weapon and light weapon attacks, but that's pretty run of the mill.

Now, say Betty has the same stats and the same feat selection. Betty is fighting with a quarterstaff, so she didn't need to expend any extra feats for EWP or anything like that. According to the SRD, Betty can treat that Quarterstaff as though she were fighting with a onehanded weapon and a light weapon. So, Betty gets one attack with one end and adds her STR and has the option of getting an attack with the other end (the light end). Since the light end of the quarterstaff is as though it were a light weapon, weapon finesse should apply to the attack made by the off hand. So Betty can add her DEX to the off-hand attack.

Please don't yell at me that I'm wrong. Rationalize to me how fighting with the quarterstaff "as though" it were a one-handed weapon and a light weapon doesn't mean treating the quarterstaff "as though" it were a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Don't forget the Power Attack feat text:
"(Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)"

Okay, here's how it reads to me:

Option One: You may use the double weapon as if it were a two handed weapon in conjunction with Power Attack. In this case, you forego any extra attacks you might be granted from fighting with two weapons. In exchange, you can add 1.5xSTR to your damage.

Option Two: You may use the double weapon status to make an attack with each end in conjunction with Power Attack. In this case, you add 1xSTR to the attack with the end considered to be the one-handed weapon and nothing to the damage of the end that is considered light since power attack cannot be used with light weapons.

If you combine this with Weapon Finesse, that means that Option One implies Weapon Finesse doesn't help you since you can't finesse a two handed weapon since the whole thing isn't a light weapon. If you select Option Two, your Power attack only works with respect to the end that is one-handed, since the rule for power attack says that you cannot use Power Attack in conjunction to a light weapon.

No?

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you combine this with Weapon Finesse, that means that Option One implies Weapon Finesse doesn't help you since you can't finesse a two handed weapon since the whole thing isn't a light weapon. If you select Option Two, your Power attack only works with respect to the end that is one-handed, since the rule for power attack says that you cannot use Power Attack in conjunction to a light weapon.

Right.

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Iron Heroes fixed all the confusion. Instead of -2/-2 with TWF, it is -2/-4 and you get to add full STR to each end.

3.5 says you can pretend that it is a 1 handed and a light weapon, for purposes of two weapon fighting. Using the other end of a quarterstaff doesn't make it easier to use. :\

 

[Hypersmurf]

3.5 says you can pretend that it is a 1 handed and a light weapon, for purposes of two weapon fighting.

It also says you normally treat it as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, but you can choose to attack with only one end in a round and treat it as a two-handed weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

It also says you normally treat it as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, but you can choose to attack with only one end in a round and treat it as a two-handed weapon.

-Hyp.

Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon.

Weapon Finesse is not a penalty, and therefore doesn't apply here.

 

[Darklone]

Weapon Finesse is not a penalty, and therefore doesn't apply here.

Double Weapons

Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

Same here about the penalties...

Honestly, it would make more sense than applying Weapon Finesse to a part of a weapon.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Weapon Finesse is not a penalty, and therefore doesn't apply here.

I'm not talking about that line. I completely agree that TWF penalties apply as if the off-end were light.

However, there is also a paragraph that states that you normally treat it as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, but you can choose to attack with only one end in a round and treat it as a two-handed weapon. See the Power Attack feat.

And once again, if you read this to only apply to Power Attack (which is perfectly valid), then we're left with a +4 bonus to disarm and sunder with both ends of the weapon (since it's a two-handed weapon, and that bonus is nothing to do with Power Attack or the penalties associated with two-weapon fighting), and 1.5x Str bonus to damage with, at the very least, the primary end even when using both ends (since it's a two-handed weapon, and Str bonus to damage is nothing to do with Power Attack or the penalties associated with two-weapon fighting).

-Hyp.