D&D 5E Can your Druids wear metal armor?

[Yaarel]

Dark Sun - There are elemental powers that grant divine magic. Druids get their powers from local spirits (e.g. animism). Metal armor taboo isn't very relevant here

Hopefully, this time around for 5e, the Clerics of Dark Sun will be "cosmic force" Clerics, who view each element as a cosmic force. They respect the element itself and attune to the magical properties of this cosmic force. They dont "receive" their spells from elementals, but rather a love for the element and appreciate the companionship of its elementals.

 

[Yaarel]

That's a genuinely good point: the question of taboos overlaps with real world concerns, and may well constitute a "red line" for some groups. There are people out there who don't want their game to involve religious inner conflict, just as some don't care for games involving other weighty issues like slavery, sexual relationships, addiction, and so forth.

After participating in this thread, I'm definitely adding "taboos" to my list of checks before starting a campaign, to make sure all players are on board.

This sensitivity for the reallife players, is also why a taboo should be offered as a choice of Ideal or Flaw. The players that get into it can have fun with the roleplay suggestion. The players who dont want to go there can choose a different roleplay suggestion.

 

[lingual]

Hopefully, this time around for 5e, the Clerics of Dark Sun will be "cosmic force" Clerics, who view each element as a cosmic force. They respect the element itself and attune to the magical properties of this cosmic force. They dont "receive" their spells from elementals, but rather a love for the element and appreciate the companionship of its elementals.

So they are sort of like Wizards and Sorceries in a sense.

 

[Yaarel]

So they are sort of like Wizards and Sorceries in a sense.

The Dark Sun Clerics are nontheistic. (Hopefully, they arent "worshiping" elementals as the new gods!)

I do think the central concept of these Clerics is that each element is "sacred". The world comes into being via these elemental forces. They are the threads of a tapestry of existence. I compare Daoism as a loose analogy, where the "five walk", the five elemental ways of moving, are interactive cosmic principles that inform all things, from microcosm to macrocosm.

The Dark Sun elements are earth, water, air, fire, and the fifth element is the whole of the planet Athas. Athas is both a Positive Material Plane where the elements are in a life-giving harmony, and a Negative Material Plane where the elements are out of balance because of the destruction of water thus no longer brings forth life. In this sense, perhaps life itself is the fifth element. The lifeforce is especially evident where plants flourish.

It easy to imagine a belief system where elements are sacred. This divine magic is about elements as symbolic principles within a meaningful life.



Regarding the arcane magic of Wizard and Sorcerer. I view arcane as technological protoscience. The Wizard exploits the magical properties of elements, similar to reallife physicists exploiting subatomic forces. The elements are tools. Likewise, I view the Sorcerer as having a technologically modified body. Like the "Six Million Dollar Man". The Sorcerer doesnt really need to understand how the body works, just be skilled at piloting it. The Warlock seems inconsistent, whether like a Wizard actually learns the magic where the patron is a mentor, or oppositely like a Sorcerer is actually transformed by the patron. But either way, the Warlock is arcane.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Why would they be balanced around what they choose to do instead of what they can actually do?

Because there is actual rule that binds them. This is the giant issue here. You get hung up on trivial difference between 'can't' and 'won't.' In practice it doesn't matter most of the time. Mechanically they don't do that. You're unable to parse the actual outcome of mechanics, which is weird, because it is pretty simple.

Do you think fighters are balanced around them being able to use daggers, or being able to use greatswords? They can choose to just use daggers... does that mean that allowing them to use Greatswords is a buff?

If there was a rule that would say fighters will only use daggers, I would absolutely think that! But there isn't. (Good example, thank you.)

Or do you just not accept that the designers balanced around the ability, then enforced an old traditional limitation after balancing?

I don't think this is likely at all. It would be very stupid to do this. They should be balanced around what is actually allowed, and as Crawford in his explanation lists what it is that they actually use, so he certainly understands it.

 

[carkl3000]

The Dark Sun Clerics are nontheistic. (Hopefully, they arent "worshiping" elementals as the new gods!)

I do think the central concept of these Clerics is that each element is "sacred". The world comes into being via these elemental forces. They are the threads of a tapestry of existence. I compare Daoism as a loose analogy, where the "five walk", the five elemental ways of moving, are interactive cosmic principles that inform all things, from microcosm to macrocosm.

The Dark Sun elements are earth, water, air, fire, and the fifth element is the whole of the planet Athas. Athas is both a Positive Material Plane where the elements are in a life-giving harmony, and a Negative Material Plane where the elements are out of balance because of the destruction of water thus no longer brings forth life. In this sense, perhaps life itself is the fifth element. The lifeforce is especially evident where plants flourish.

It easy to imagine a belief system where elements are sacred. This divine magic is about elements as symbolic principles within a meaningful life.



Regarding the arcane magic of Wizard and Sorcerer. I view arcane as technological protoscience. The Wizard exploits the magical properties of elements, similar to reallife physicists exploiting subatomic forces. The elements are tools. Likewise, I view the Sorcerer as having a technologically modified body. Like the "Six Million Dollar Man". The Sorcerer doesnt really need to understand how the body works, just be skilled at piloting it. The Warlock seems inconsistent, whether like a Wizard actually learns the magic where the patron is a mentor, or oppositely like a Sorcerer is actually transformed by the patron. But either way, the Warlock is arcane.

My druid currently is shaping up to be much more like a "natural wizard" in this fashion, rather than a "priest of nature" as a lot of others conceive of the druid. He does pray to Deneir for knowledge and guidance (as an Arcana cleric), but he is acquiring most of his druidic power by learning how to channel natural forces in the world. He's kind of a proto-Earth scientist and proto-biologist.

 

[Yaarel]

My druid currently is shaping up to be much more like a "natural wizard" in this fashion, rather than a "priest of nature" as a lot of others conceive of the druid. He does pray to Deneir for knowledge and guidance (as an Arcana cleric), but he is acquiring most of his druidic power by learning how to channel natural forces in the world. He's kind of a proto-Earth scientist and proto-biologist.

When thinking about the Dark Sun setting I have its sacred communities in mind.

At the same time, the Druid class can be the best class for a mythologically accurate alchemist, of various reallife cultures. These often used their undestanding of the elements to heal, and transfigure immortally, as well as creating various kinds of recipes for various kinds of tasks and items. Creating the adamantine metal is something an alchemical Druid would be doing, as well as understanding the nature of the lifeforces (5th element) of plants and animals.

 

[Yaarel]

Right now the Druid is divine. But the designers have mentioned psionic and primal as power sources.

Hope the Druid instead becomes a primal class, and primal is the same as psionic, in the sense of mind-over-matter, but focuses on themes relating to plants and the four elements, including weather, the sun, and other features of nature.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

But no god gives them their powers. They are "clerics" of nature, and nature isn't going to do anything to them if they violate their taboo for a reason.

It literally says straight out in the PHB that that's exactly how they get their powers, kid. As I mentioned in the post you quoted.

PHB, p64 under heading Power of Nature, 1st paragraph:
"Druids revere nature above all, gaining their spells and other magical powers either through the force of nature itself [a deific power] or from a nature deity."

The point is that the taboo can be broken just as easily as a vegetarian eats meat when necessary. The designers have said so. It's not hard for them to do it, they just choose not to if it isn't an emergency.

1) I wasn't asking you and you've already established that you have zero credibility on the subject.
2) The designers most definitely said no such thing. Vegetarianism was brought up as an example of "will not" as distinct from "cannot". The consequences given for doing so were "ask the DM"; like they are for all conduct violations in 5e. As I'm sure has been brought up multiple times in this thread in response to this drivel.

The undying are powered by positive energy from Irian(a plane with a manifest zone in Arenal) not divine power. Yes elemental priests exist but they aren't really the same as clerics. The Dark Powers are most certainly not divine powers, druids get a bit of mention in the 3.0 RCS where their link to nature provides a bit of a shield from the but they are vulnerable in other ways including influence from dark lords & The Dark Powers on nature.

The Dark Powers aren't gods and it's always been deliberately unclear if they replace the gods entirely or merely filter them. The books have included hints such as clerics who arrive from other worlds and who say that their god's voice sounds different or distant after they came to Ravenloft. 100% home-grown deities like Ezra grant spells, but again it's hard to tell if there really is an Ezra (or a different deity that grants spells in Ezra's name) or if the DPs do it. Since clerics of Ezra are legitimate clerics, not warlocks, then if the Dark Powers grant spells, then they're something akin to gods.

The undying are explicitly powered by positive energy (aka Irian) OR "the devotion of mortal beings". Which sounds exactly like divine or spiritual magic to me. Do note that undying can be found in places that are NOT aligned with Irian...although rarely. Elemental priests in Dark Sun WERE clerics in 2e; and per the 3e adaptation supplement released by Athas.org; there appears to be some debate on whether the cleric or the warlock is the preferred chassis for 5e. You all might (as in I presume probably are) be right about the Dark Powers. I've never tried DMing a Ravenloft campaign and I'll admit I'm a bit rusty on the lore. Though as Faolyn mentioned, one of the listed theories behind clerical spells in Ravenloft, to my knowledge, is that the Dark Powers grant them somehow.

The point was that pointing to the source of powers as it exists in settings like FR is going to break down as you move to other settings. Coincidentally they are settings that the no metal armor trope is the most jarring

As far as I'm aware, the prohibition against metal armor is the same in all major settings. Some seem to consider "nature" a spiritual force rather than a "divine" one, but the distinction is meaningless with respect to that prohibition. Druids derive their power from their spiritual/religious beliefs and rituals - regardless of whether "Nature" is technically a god or not.

And what is the consequence listed in the PHB for breaking a religious taboo?

The same consequence a Paladin suffers for breaking their oath, a Warlock does for failing to live up to the terms of their pact, a Cleric for making a serious blasphemy or even turning away entirely from their deity or deific force - whatever the DM decides it is. The default presumption is not "there are no consequences". Pretty sure this has come up at least 80 times in this thread.

There are no gods involved in the druids of my homebrew world, or in Eberron. Or in Ravnica.

The magic of the oldest druidic sect in Eberron, the Gatekeepers (as taught by VVaraak), stemmed from bonds between the three progenitor dragons. Which, sorry to burst your bubble, are divine beings. It's implied that some other sects might derive their abilities from things like fey (e.g Greensingers), which would be something like animism, but never directly stated to my knowledge. There's most definitely no implication that the Metal Armor prohibition doesn't exist there. I have no access to Ravnica-related campaign materials and thus no way to verify whether your claim is true. The official MTG website (MTG being the progenitor of Ravnica) has some things to say on the matter, however. Per the "Druids, Trees, and Truth" publication: "The druid's power—like all true power—comes from the land. He recognizes that, to gain access the fundamental forces of the world, the first step is the subordination of the self to the will of nature." That describes worship / spiritual veneration. Making "Nature" a deific force if not technically a god. You're free to write or rewrite WHATEVER you choose in your homebrew setting, of course.

Not to be rude... but considering the guy is dead and had nothing at all to do with the design of DnD since 3rd edition... why do I care what compunctions Gygax had? He has nothing to do with the game beyond the impact he had back in 1e and 2e.

So much nothing that the prohibition against metal armor he instituted in 1e persisted almost unchanged through all the succeeding editions he wasn't involved with until 4e at least (about which I don't know because I couldn't stand 4e); with the slight evolution from "can't wear metal armor" to "loses all magical abilities for 24 hours if they put on metal armor". And even in 5e the prohibition remains - but again, as with all conduct violations in 5e, the consequences are left up to the DM.

In animism, the features of nature are living minds all around.

I never understood why some people assume people "worship" nature beings.

When I live in an apartment building, I know there are persons with minds all around me. LOL! I dont "worship" them! I just say "hi" if I happen to run into them, and sometimes have a good friend who is a neighbor. Maybe I knock on the door of a stranger if there is a party or a problem.

Nature beings are about coexistence. There is no worship. The goal is to have a peaceable constructive community that includes all of the nature beings, including the type of nature beings that are humans.

The main job of a shaman is find ways to resolve conflicts to keep the community functional. For animism, the environmental community − the neighborliness and the hospitality − is the sacred "cosmic force". Not any particular nature beings, per se.

You got me, I used "worship" as shorthand for "practicing spiritual activities revolving around". I should have known someone would inevitably try to split hairs on the subject. A fair number of real world religions that DO involve gods don't exactly worship those beings either. Buddhism involves a number of potentially divine beings (buddhas, devas); but much of the activities involved with the practice revolve around meditation, learning and adhering to moral precepts rather than offering prayer or rituals in devotion to a divine being. Animistic religions are or historically were HIGHLY variable...and a number do actually involve worship or even gods. Greek gods are well known, but Greek mythology also had an animistic backdrop behind it all; filled with river, mountain, forest spirits. Aztec mythology as well. Shintoism has the kami, many of whom are given small shrines and offerings; and some of whom, like Amaterasu Omikami have full deific-level powers and prestige. An animist religion still necessitates 1) a belief in a particular set of beings, 2) prescribed methods of interacting with those beings, and/or 3) methods to (hopefully) avoid problems, offense, or to request favors from those beings.

The specific nature of religious practice doesn't actually matter. A taboo or prohibition exists within a religious context because it is presumed according to that tradition to offend some spirit or deific figure; or to demonstrate some symbolic loyalty; or because violating the taboo is presumed to have some deleterious effect on one's own spiritual nature (be it a soul or karma). In a world where there are direct, tangible, magical benefits received from specific religious practice (i.e. druidic empowerment) - then one is going to have direct, tangible, magical consequences for violating the tenets of that practice. Even if just the (temporary) loss of the aforementioned benefits.

 

[carkl3000]

It literally says straight out in the PHB that that's exactly how they get their powers, kid. As I mentioned in the post you quoted.

PHB, p64 under heading Power of Nature, 1st paragraph:
"Druids revere nature above all, gaining their spells and other magical powers either through the force of nature itself [a deific power] or from a nature deity."

Really?