rangerjohn
Explorer
Of course, why worry your immune to magic now. The only thing you had to worry about in 3.0 was will spells and those have been nerfed.
Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant (3.5)
- Thread starter Belen
- Start date
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Of course the wizard dishes out his damage (except for the magic missile damage) to a whole area. However, he's only operating at that capacity for, at absolute most, 4 rounds per day (assuming a 20 int evoker, with quickened magic missile in every 5th level slot, fireball in every third level and half his 4th level slots). And then he's done. The Cleric can't enable him to do it again by using a wand of cure light wounds on him. Nothing will help except 8 hours of rest and a bit of preparation. So PC wizards can't afford to let loose than that very often.
So, that's typically 52 points of damage to an area (assuming no elemental resistances or spell resistance) for four rounds a day. I don't see much problem with that. Wizards are supposed to be scary. If that wizard can, at best average 40 to 46 points of damage--assuming no evasion, SR, or elemental resistance--depending upon saving throws, he's not nearly as worrisome as the barbarian. Now, me, I think that wizards ought to be worrisome.
I've also noticed that worrisome wizards aren't really any safer than worrisome barbarians. If a wizard tried the three spells per round blast-a-thon against the people I've played with, he'd be the recipient of a dispel magic or slow, an angry barbarian, and at least one readied action to disrupt his spell (or counterspell) before his next round. (And wizards are a lot less able to survive that kind of attention than the barbarian).
If 3.5e is to "rely less on omnipresent and overpowered magic than 3e does" they ought to give the classes whose only abilities are obvious and "overpowered" magic something else if they don't want that to be a part of the game. High CR commoners with a few subtle and weak abilities aren't exactly attractive next to heroic fighters barbarians and rogues.
So, that's typically 52 points of damage to an area (assuming no elemental resistances or spell resistance) for four rounds a day. I don't see much problem with that. Wizards are supposed to be scary. If that wizard can, at best average 40 to 46 points of damage--assuming no evasion, SR, or elemental resistance--depending upon saving throws, he's not nearly as worrisome as the barbarian. Now, me, I think that wizards ought to be worrisome.
I've also noticed that worrisome wizards aren't really any safer than worrisome barbarians. If a wizard tried the three spells per round blast-a-thon against the people I've played with, he'd be the recipient of a dispel magic or slow, an angry barbarian, and at least one readied action to disrupt his spell (or counterspell) before his next round. (And wizards are a lot less able to survive that kind of attention than the barbarian).
If 3.5e is to "rely less on omnipresent and overpowered magic than 3e does" they ought to give the classes whose only abilities are obvious and "overpowered" magic something else if they don't want that to be a part of the game. High CR commoners with a few subtle and weak abilities aren't exactly attractive next to heroic fighters barbarians and rogues.
Gothmog said:
Last edited:
Marshall
First Post
Elder-Basilisk said:
Ditto!
1e and 2e had the 10d6 damage caps because HD maxed out at 10. When 3e came along, the damage caps stayed but everyone got a full HD for every level and a full CON bonus for every level. That 10d6, doesnt amount to very dangerous, if you have 20d10 + 20x6 HP.
Re
The changes I have seen so far really aren't that big. Haste has been returned to its previous versions. I really enjoyed the extra spell casting action, but even I'll admit that it made my sorcerer seriously outshine the group.
Disintegrate did not really need to be changed, but it still sounds like a very potent spell.
Hold spells are still useful, but now they truly are only good for a coup de gras attack. Multiple saves on hold spells will make it much harder to capture PC's or NPC's without beating on them alot first. I know for many the Hold spells were used mostly to coup de gras enemies, but we used them to capture enemies as well. We would cast a hold on a single enemy, kill his compadres, and then question the held individual. Will be real hard to continue this practice.
I didn't use the buff spells all that much anyway. I never liked it when other players buffed themselves up for the duration of the game either. Ability buffs should be useful for only a combat or two, not all day. Heck, even a 3rd level cleric could buff their strength up for 3 hours.
So far, I haven't seen any changes that will make arcane casters useless. I feel only a person who is not well-versed in playing a caster will be impacted. Personally, I have killed or eliminated enemies with illusion spells (no Phantasmal Killer or Wierd). Given the versatility of the mage, I don't think their ability to contribute effectively to combat or otherwise will be too greatly impacted.
You are overreacting.
The changes I have seen so far really aren't that big. Haste has been returned to its previous versions. I really enjoyed the extra spell casting action, but even I'll admit that it made my sorcerer seriously outshine the group.
Disintegrate did not really need to be changed, but it still sounds like a very potent spell.
Hold spells are still useful, but now they truly are only good for a coup de gras attack. Multiple saves on hold spells will make it much harder to capture PC's or NPC's without beating on them alot first. I know for many the Hold spells were used mostly to coup de gras enemies, but we used them to capture enemies as well. We would cast a hold on a single enemy, kill his compadres, and then question the held individual. Will be real hard to continue this practice.
I didn't use the buff spells all that much anyway. I never liked it when other players buffed themselves up for the duration of the game either. Ability buffs should be useful for only a combat or two, not all day. Heck, even a 3rd level cleric could buff their strength up for 3 hours.
So far, I haven't seen any changes that will make arcane casters useless. I feel only a person who is not well-versed in playing a caster will be impacted. Personally, I have killed or eliminated enemies with illusion spells (no Phantasmal Killer or Wierd). Given the versatility of the mage, I don't think their ability to contribute effectively to combat or otherwise will be too greatly impacted.
You are overreacting.
Well, seeing as I've spat my dummy on all those clods whinging about how Dungeon magazine sucks and they have to pay a few tenths of a cent more per page than they used to, I'm going to have to spit my dummy at powergamers whinging they're being nerfed by the new rules.
If you powergame, any reduction in your power is immediately and irrevocably A Bad Thing (tm). So what. Stop powergaming, crybaby.
WTF is with a 7th level evoker with 21 intelligence and a +2 stat boost item? What frikkin' DM allowed that? Or the 12th level fighter-type with 26 strength, a powergaming PrC frm an entirely different game system, and a weapon which wouldn't be out of place in a the hands of a deity? The characters don't need nerfing, but the players and the idiot DMs who allowed these excesses need to be dunked in a vat of warm pus and force to inhale flatulence direct from the bowels of Baalzebul himself (Book of Vile Darkness version, preferably).
Cheers, Al'Kelhar
If you powergame, any reduction in your power is immediately and irrevocably A Bad Thing (tm). So what. Stop powergaming, crybaby.
WTF is with a 7th level evoker with 21 intelligence and a +2 stat boost item? What frikkin' DM allowed that? Or the 12th level fighter-type with 26 strength, a powergaming PrC frm an entirely different game system, and a weapon which wouldn't be out of place in a the hands of a deity? The characters don't need nerfing, but the players and the idiot DMs who allowed these excesses need to be dunked in a vat of warm pus and force to inhale flatulence direct from the bowels of Baalzebul himself (Book of Vile Darkness version, preferably).
Cheers, Al'Kelhar
someone will always complain about something
so what if the mage can't do 120 points of damage? can the fighter magically go invisible? open doors with a wave of his hand? teleport across the world? solve any problem by thinkingh up a new spell?
the mages strength is versatility. sure you can buy magic items to do neat things, but the mage(wizard i know) can buy magic items AND cast spells. and i don't know how things go in your games, but in mine the casters still seem to be the most effective on the combat field. if your damage spells don't work, be creative, their are hundres of spells that do more useful things besides xdy damage
and don't even complain because you can't keep up with a twinky made with broken classes, totally irrelevant
so what if the mage can't do 120 points of damage? can the fighter magically go invisible? open doors with a wave of his hand? teleport across the world? solve any problem by thinkingh up a new spell?
the mages strength is versatility. sure you can buy magic items to do neat things, but the mage(wizard i know) can buy magic items AND cast spells. and i don't know how things go in your games, but in mine the casters still seem to be the most effective on the combat field. if your damage spells don't work, be creative, their are hundres of spells that do more useful things besides xdy damage
and don't even complain because you can't keep up with a twinky made with broken classes, totally irrelevant
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
A +2 Stat Boost item is worth 4000gp. Baseline wealth for a 7th level character is 19,000. That's under 25%.
21 Intelligence is high - it means starting with an 18 - but you can do that even with 25 point buy.
The Katana is worth a smidgin over 18k. Baseline wealth for a 12 level character is 88k.
26 Strength is very plausible with an Empowered Bull's Strength. Or it can be done with a +6 Belt - 36k, still well within his baseline, though it's a sizeable fraction sunk into a single item.
The Blademaster, I'll admit, isn't designed for D&D.
-Hyp.
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