Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant (3.5)

[Storminator]

After the events of my last session, I can honestly say that the casters WILL be nerfed in 3.5 just on the tidbits of info we have so far.

Case in point: Clay Golems (11 HD creatures)- magic immunity.
<SNIP>

How about a counter example?

Here's a combat from my game, 16th level.

Day starts, wizard drops 6 buff spells on the party. Cleric gets the rest. (go wizard!)

We Scry (go wizard!)

Wizard casts Fly until everyone's Flying (go wizard!)

Wizard tricks himself out with 8, count 'em 8 spells (go wizard!)

Bard casts inviso sphere.

Wizard casts Mass Haste. (go wizard!)

Teleport a hundred yards above the battlefield. (go wizard!)

Wizard drops Chain Lightning on the goblin wizards. Eight 14th level wizards die in one round. (GO WIZARD!!!!)

Remaining goblin wizard attempts spell. Using Ring of Spell Battle, wizard counterspells. (go wizard!)

Major smackdown ensues, including a Flensing by Mr Wizard, and the devastating True Strike (as a haste spell) Disintegrate combo.

BBEG teleports in and we're low on spells, it's time to go, teleport out. (go wizard!)

We're being scried on... (guess who figured that out?)
BBEG teleports in, we teleport out (go wizard!)

We're being scried on...
BBEG teleports in... we teleport out (ok, now it's the bard UMDing scrolls, but who wrote the scroll? Go wizard!)

.
.
.


Hard to imagine that fight going our way without the wizard. Real hard.

You might be tempted to think our DM can't handle the party, and that's why we kicked butt there. You'd be quite wrong. Our DM rocks. But so does our wizard.

PS

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Al

Well, it was worth a shot . Seriously though, for the wizard to kill the lich, he must hit (50%), it fail its save (80%) and then roll more than 72 on 31d6 (er...can't be bothered to work out...probably about 90%). So his top spell is only having a 36% chance to knock out the lich, the monster which is weakest against disintegrate. Against creatures with good touch ACs, good Fort saves and lots of HPs, his chances drop dramatically.

Good. This means the wizard has to spend 20% of his resources, not just one spell, to win. In any event, that wizard should be casting True Seeing before using Disintegrate since how many liches don't use Improved Invisibility or Mirror Image?

quote:
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Last time I checked, you don't count armor bonus for touch AC
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I thought mage armour, being a force effect, did count- though to be fair, I'm not entirely sure now you mention it.

The only touch attacks it applies to are incorporeal touch attacks.

Belen

The wizard contributed a mass haste to the fight. Then promptly got one-rounded by the golem. (Note: You cannot heal damage from a clay golem without a cleric with the Heal spell.) The Bard ran away from the golem the entire combat as she had no magical blunt weapons.

Why didn't the wizard cast Fly? Or Dimension Door? Or even Stoneskin? Wall of Force? Wall of Stone? Greater Magic Weapon? (Using old DR rules.)

Or the new golem DR?

Most BBEG fights IME seem to take place in doors where a wizard has limited space to move.

Why? I don't see why a BBEG should let his enemies into his lair. He's better off ambushing him in the woods, far away from his base of operations with all it's sensitive papers, half-made magic items and the like.

And every fighter I have met either has a see invis item, or has had that permanently cast upon themselves, so the biggest argument, that of a flying, invisible, caster, is really bunk.

At high level, this is true. I don't see this happening at 10th-level or so.

 

[Belen]

Wouldn't 14th level wizards know enough to have a anti-scry up? Not to dis the GM, but my guys could never get away with that one.

Not that they haven't got one past me before. <evil grin> I just love it when the wizard scries in my game. I get to place them in a whole world of hurt....

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Excellent point.

Wizards are able to scry, teleport, dispel magic traps, fly, become invisible, run really fast, move through walls, divine what a magic item can do, charm people and monsters, converse with gods, change form, halt time, ... So of course they should also be as good at fighting as focused fighters.

Everybody who is defending the 3.5e changes seems to assume that every wizard has all these capabilities at once but that is not the case anymore than every fighter having Improved Trip, Whirlwind Attack, Great Cleave, Exotic Weapon, Weapon Focuse, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Sunder, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot. All of those abilities are available to the fighter but most fighters will only have one of the above chains--they might have Cleave and Improved Trip, Improved Trip and Whirlwind Attack, Cleave and Whirlwind attack, or Improved Critical and Whirlwind Attack, or the archery feats but no one fighter will be able to realize all of the potential fighter abilities.

Similarly, most wizards are able to do some of the things on the list above once or twice per day but very few wizards are able to do all of the things on the list above and for those who are, most are able to do each one only once per day. It's very easy to say "Well the wizard can dimension door away, fly, move very fast, erect magical defenses, turn invisible, and teleport back" however, the wizard who prepared Shield, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat, Displacement, Haste, fly, dimension door, Improved Invisibility, and Teleport doesn't have much left to do after he teleports back. He can possibly use a wand to kill something but fighters can throw money at problems too (a Fighter with wings of flying, a necklace of fireballs, Helm of Teleportation, Heward's Handy Haversack full of alchemist's fire, and a ring of invisibility can do roughly the same thing--the only difference is the amount of items used (and expedable the monetary cost may be similar in the fighter empties the haversack instead of tossing the whole necklace of missiles)). Wizards and sorcerors are rarely perfectly prepared for every situation they enter into (many posters seem to assume they always are).

In any case, it seems far from obvious to me that a 10th level evoker who's focussed on nothing but blowing stuff up should not be as effective a combatant as a 12th level fighter or barbarian.

 

[Storminator]

Wouldn't 14th level wizards know enough to have a anti-scry up? Not to dis the GM, but my guys could never get away with that one.

Not that they haven't got one past me before. <evil grin> I just love it when the wizard scries in my game. I get to place them in a whole world of hurt....

Sure. Of course, we weren't scrying the wizards, just the guys near the wizards. On a previous jaunt we had Dominated an officer in the army (go wizard!), and we were scrying him. The wizards noticed scrying, and our wizard dropped the scry immediately.

You're not going to stop a Diviner Loremaster Archmage with a spy in your midst with a punk spell or two.

PS

 

[Creeping Death]

[glare] You got somethin' you wanna say?

("... and I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and fuuuuu-urious anger...!")

-Hyp.

LOL... but shouldn't that be, with great vengeance and smurfious anger?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Hmm. A 16th level wizard drops eight 14th level wizards with a chain lightning. That's very highly unusual.

DC: Int bonus (+9 if he started with an 18 int, put all stat increases into int, and has a +6 headband; possibly only +6 if he started with a 14 or 15 int and only has a +4 headband) +6 spell level, +2 with spell focus, +4 with greater spell focu DC 22 to 29. On average, one goblin wizard should succeed in saving against DC 29 but as many as half of them should succeed against the other potential DCs.

Primary target: 16d6 damage; 56 points average; 96 max. (Save for 1/2)
Secondary targets: 8d6 damage; 28 points average; 48 max (Save for 1/2)

14th level wizard with
10 con: 36.5 hp
12 con: 50.5 hp
14 con: 64.5 hp
18 con: 92.5 hp
20 con: 106.5 hp

14th level wizard reflex save:
+4 base +dex (at least +1 for goblins) + resistance (should be at least +2)
Assuming decent spells (what wizard wouldn't be prepared with a Cat's grace) this should be at least +10. +12 is more likely to be typical for 14th level wizards (modified 18 dex and +3 resistance).

All of this assumes that the wizards had no specific defensive spells active (Energy Buffer or contingency (common among 14th level wizards) for instance).

So, even assuming that the eight 14th level wizards had 10 con and average hit points, your wizard still rolled very near to max damage and none of the wizards made their save.

However, wizards who make it to 14th level don't have ten con. They more typically have 14 or better con modified for endurance spells (or bracers of health) and possibly toad familiars. If they don't have at least a modified con of 14 by 14th level, something is wrong. So it should not have been possible, even rolling max damage for the wizard to take out all eight fourteenth level goblin wizards--in fact, in most campaign worlds, rolling max damage, against wizards who all fail their saves and had no elemental resistance spells up, it would still not have been possible for the chain lightning to kill more than one.

Now I won't comment on what kind of a game your DM is running but this example has as much to do with ordinary 3e and 3.5e games as examples of fighter damage that place a fighter with a scythe and whirlwind attack next to six dragons and assume that he rolls a max damage crit with each attack. (And that that kills the dragons).

Wizard drops Chain Lightning on the goblin wizards. Eight 14th level wizards die in one round. (GO WIZARD!!!!)

 

[Storminator]

Hmm. A 16th level wizard drops eight 14th level wizards with a chain lightning. That's very highly unusual.

DC: Int bonus (+9 if he started with an 18 int, put all stat increases into int, and has a +6 headband; possibly only +6 if he started with a 14 or 15 int and only has a +4 headband) +6 spell level, +2 with spell focus, +4 with greater spell focu DC 22 to 29. On average, one goblin wizard should succeed in saving against DC 29 but as many as half of them should succeed against the other potential DCs.

You forgot the Spell Power, and the Spell Casting Prodigy, and the 20 starting INT for a sun elf. Add 7 to the DC. All wizards failed, as is pretty normal for a DC 36 reflex save.

Primary target: 16d6 damage; 56 points average; 96 max. (Save for 1/2)
Secondary targets: 8d6 damage; 28 points average; 48 max (Save for 1/2)

Uh-huh. Rod of Greater Empowerment. 96 points of damage.

14th level wizard with
10 con: 36.5 hp
12 con: 50.5 hp
14 con: 64.5 hp
18 con: 92.5 hp
20 con: 106.5 hp

14th level wizard reflex save:
+4 base +dex (at least +1 for goblins) + resistance (should be at least +2)
Assuming decent spells (what wizard wouldn't be prepared with a Cat's grace) this should be at least +10. +12 is more likely to be typical for 14th level wizards (modified 18 dex and +3 resistance).

+12 reflex save vs 36 DC. All fail, take a hundred points of damage, thank you for playing. All dead.

All of this assumes that the wizards had no specific defensive spells active (Energy Buffer or contingency (common among 14th level wizards) for instance).

Yup. All ready for our regular tactics, firestorms and cones of cold.

So, even assuming that the eight 14th level wizards had 10 con and average hit points, your wizard still rolled very near to max damage and none of the wizards made their save.

However, wizards who make it to 14th level don't have ten con. They more typically have 14 or better con modified for endurance spells (or bracers of health) and possibly toad familiars. If they don't have at least a modified con of 14 by 14th level, something is wrong. So it should not have been possible, even rolling max damage for the wizard to take out all eight fourteenth level goblin wizards--in fact, in most campaign worlds, rolling max damage, against wizards who all fail their saves and had no elemental resistance spells up, it would still not have been possible for the chain lightning to kill more than one.

Uh huh. Yeah. I think I covered all that.

Now I won't comment on what kind of a game your DM is running but this example has as much to do with ordinary 3e and 3.5e games as examples of fighter damage that place a fighter with a scythe and whirlwind attack next to six dragons and assume that he rolls a max damage crit with each attack. (And that that kills the dragons).

Oh yeah, that's not a comment about the game my DM is running. Sure. You know, perhaps it was you I was thinking of when I said

You might be tempted to think our DM can't handle the party, and that's why we kicked butt there. You'd be quite wrong. Our DM rocks. But so does our wizard.

In other words, you really don't know what you're talking about, so maybe you shouldn't try.

PS

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

You forgot the Spell Power, and the Spell Casting Prodigy, and the 20 starting INT for a sun elf. Add 7 to the DC. All wizards failed, as is pretty normal for a DC 36 reflex save.

A FR only race, feat and prestige class make this example somewhat less applicable to the standard D&D campaign

Uh-huh. Rod of Greater Empowerment. 96 points of damage.

And now adding in a Tome and blood item. Not that FRCS or T&B (or even the races, classes and items you chose from them) are necessarily broken in and of themselves or even when combined but they do mean that this is not exactly an example of an ordinary D&D wizard. In fact, it's an example of a wizard doing things that can ONLY be done using builder book items and campaign book races, feats, and classes. To present it as if it were an example of an ordinary wizard is misleading to say the least.

Plus, even with the rod of Greater Empowerment, 96 points of damage is far more than an average roll on the dice unless it was an empowered Chain lightning--in which case, it's average but you should have mentioned that fact.

+12 reflex save vs 36 DC. All fail, take a hundred points of damage, thank you for playing. All dead.

Against that DC, failure is to be expected (although there's still only about a 2/3 chance of universal failure) but since the secondary arcs only do half the damage of the primary arc, all of the non-primary targets should still be alive unless it really was a maximum damage double empowered chain lightning. (Which is much different than the way you initially described the scenario).

Yup. All ready for our regular tactics, firestorms and cones of cold.

That's an awfully poor use of contingencies (if that's what they used) and energy buffer (if that's what they used). Either one should be set up to protect against any energy type not just a particular one.

Oh yeah, that's not a comment about the game my DM is running. Sure. You know, perhaps it was you I was thinking of when I said

Mea Culpa, I probably should have said "I don't want to judge your game because as long as you're having fun, that's the point but it's irrelevant to discussing the core rules balance of wizards and other classes." The wizard in question probably can't get much more optimized but there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. The thing that's wrong is presenting it as an example of what an ordinary wizard can do. A 16th level core rules wizard cannot do what that wizard did--even with the most amazing confluence of luck that makes all his foes fail their saves and him roll max damage.

In other words, you really don't know what you're talking about, so maybe you shouldn't try.

That's awfully rude for when you're called on your example. You present it as if it's an example of an ordinary D&D wizard doing really well. Then we discover that it's a maxed out FRCS sun elf with the archmage prestige class and a very powerful builder book item and we still can't account for how he managed to kill any of the secondary targets (unless it was an empowered Chain Lightning cast with the rod for a double empowered chain lightning and then the wizard rolled max damage, but I think those things are significant enough that they should have been included in the original example if it's to be understood as an honest example).

 

[Storminator]

<SNIP>

That's awfully rude for when you're called on your example. You present it as if it's an example of an ordinary D&D wizard doing really well. Then we discover that it's a maxed out FRCS sun elf with the archmage prestige class and a very powerful builder book item and we still can't account for how he managed to kill any of the secondary targets (unless it was an empowered Chain Lightning cast with the rod for a double empowered chain lightning and then the wizard rolled max damage, but I think those things are significant enough that they should have been included in the original example if it's to be understood as an honest example).

Beyond your quibbles about specific mechanics about the example, we can all agree this is a wizard made with 3e rules, right? And he's devastatingly effective.

And you know, if you think my comment was rude, go back and read yours. And the second one where you tried to appear to apologize without really apologizing, and tossing out a couple more insults along the way.

The fact remains, you didn't know what you were talking about, but you threw out insults anyway. Sorry I called you on it.

PS