Cloudgatherer
First Post
Grog said:
Uh, yeah. I did one in this thread a few pages back... it's missing the Spell Focus nerf.... guess I'll go add that. (page 2)
Edit: Since I'm here...
Did I miss anything?
Last edited:
Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant (3.5)
- Thread starter Belen
- Start date
Uh, yeah. I did one in this thread a few pages back... it's missing the Spell Focus nerf.... guess I'll go add that. (page 2)
Edit: Since I'm here...
Did I miss anything?
Well, for an 11th level wizard, I'd say that 2 6th level spells is probably pretty close to 20% of his resources. If the lich wins initiative, the wizard will be spending a lot more.
Nerfed.
Nerfed.
Having seen your exchange with E_B, I'd add two points.
1. Your wizard is using a *lot* of supplements
2. You forgot to account for secondary targets taking half damage (even empowered, 12d6 is unlikely to take out a 14th level wiz)
Nerfed.
Okay. Increase damage by average of 4 points. Not a huge difference.
Assessing the overall utility of a spell by taking the *weakest*. That's right- the weakest. Not 'weak', not 'quite weak', but the weakest. No other major DnD opponents has a Fort save as poor as a lich for its CR.
I think this is the crux of the problem. The most vocal DnD lobby are those who are the most 'serious' gamers (since they're the ones discussing spells for hours on message boards
). WotC therefore react to this vocal lobby, who by virtue of being 'serious' gamers, tend to possess supplements. WotC therefore modify DnD based on a disproportionate and unrepresentative feedback. Core rules should not be 'backwardly-compatible' to assume people use supplements. They should be stand-alone, and the *supplements* should be toned down, not the core rules. That's utterly wrong-headed.Er...so your wizard who has spent four feats pumping out his ability to do Disintegrate (Spell Focus, GSF, WF(Ray), PBS) is not going to either use Disintegrate or be somehow hampered from soaking so many resources into the primary aim of maximising that spell. Opportunity cost, d00d.
Nonsense, and double-nonsense with melee brutes. A melee brute cannot take down a melee brute in one round unless it's a smacked-out build, has Power Critical with a huge multiplier weapon or uses a CDG. By 13th level, any self-respecting melee brute should have coming close to 130 hit points, far more than a 13th level tank can dish out in one round.
Sure, if the fighters are going to sit there and not do much. The difference between the wizard and the held victim is that given the new hold, it will wear off reasonably quickly (or be dispelled or whatever). Then the fighters can go back on the offensive. PC fighters are not to attack as a human shield for the wizard on a permanent basis, even if they are happy to do it for a held victim for a round or so.
Do I detect a snipe
?
WizarDru
Adventurer
As far as I'm concerned, it's always easier to add magic than subtract it. 3.5 seems to follow this philosophy. Many discussions have taken place on these boards concerning the level of magic that is present in the third edition, and particularly the necessity of it for later levels.
The splatbooks sold well. An industry exists to satisfy the hunger of the D&D marketplace, producing materials to keep the hobby alive. The classbooks also expanded the rules signficantly, sometimes addressing issues which then came back into the core. I think it would be foolish to ignore them and the effect they've had on the core. On the one hand, you have power creep as new and more powerful abilities, spells and classes are introduced. On the other hand, you have rules clarifications (polymorph, magic sneak attacks, revised feats) and things to fill noticable gaps in the rules (stat buffs missing from the core, feat rods, improved wildshape options and so forth).
I expect 3.5 to be something more akin to a 'lessons learned' version of 3.0. I have no doubt that there will be tons of folks who have house rules....but they do now, and they always have. Some folks personal philsophy will not gibe with the choices made in any game version (whether it be due to disagreement about the mechanics, verisimilitude, or what have you).
What I don't understand is why some folks seem so angry about the whole thing (and I'm not referring to someone specifically...it's just my impression that the folks who aren't happy about 3.5 are very unhappy). Did this degree of hostility exist prior to 3.0?
The splatbooks sold well. An industry exists to satisfy the hunger of the D&D marketplace, producing materials to keep the hobby alive. The classbooks also expanded the rules signficantly, sometimes addressing issues which then came back into the core. I think it would be foolish to ignore them and the effect they've had on the core. On the one hand, you have power creep as new and more powerful abilities, spells and classes are introduced. On the other hand, you have rules clarifications (polymorph, magic sneak attacks, revised feats) and things to fill noticable gaps in the rules (stat buffs missing from the core, feat rods, improved wildshape options and so forth).
I expect 3.5 to be something more akin to a 'lessons learned' version of 3.0. I have no doubt that there will be tons of folks who have house rules....but they do now, and they always have. Some folks personal philsophy will not gibe with the choices made in any game version (whether it be due to disagreement about the mechanics, verisimilitude, or what have you).
What I don't understand is why some folks seem so angry about the whole thing (and I'm not referring to someone specifically...it's just my impression that the folks who aren't happy about 3.5 are very unhappy). Did this degree of hostility exist prior to 3.0?
Storminator
First Post
Sorry for the heinous formatting, quoting quotes isn't nice.
quote:
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Day starts, wizard drops 6 buff spells on the party. Cleric gets the rest. (go wizard!)
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Nerfed.
Yup. Not complaining. I was refuting the assertion that 3e wizards are useless.
quote:
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Wizard casts Mass Haste. (go wizard!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nerfed.
Yup. Thank god. We've already switched over, and the only complaint is that the cleric needs a new 7th level domain spell.
quote:
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Wizard drops Chain Lightning on the goblin wizards. Eight 14th level wizards die in one round. (GO WIZARD!!!!)
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Having seen your exchange with E_B, I'd add two points.
1. Your wizard is using a *lot* of supplements
2. You forgot to account for secondary targets taking half damage (even empowered, 12d6 is unlikely to take out a 14th level wiz)
1. Yup. I'm sure he's the only wizard in all of D&D like that. (but my examples are FRCS and T&B, hardly obscure)
2. Nope. Half damage for secondary targets killed 'em all. As I said before, my DM's great. He never misses stuff like that. Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes you don't. When I'm done crying about it I'll tell you about the Mordenkainen's Disjunction my monk got nailed with (so many failed saves.
)
Again, sorry about the formatting.
PS
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day starts, wizard drops 6 buff spells on the party. Cleric gets the rest. (go wizard!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nerfed.
Yup. Not complaining. I was refuting the assertion that 3e wizards are useless.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wizard casts Mass Haste. (go wizard!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nerfed.
Yup. Thank god. We've already switched over, and the only complaint is that the cleric needs a new 7th level domain spell.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wizard drops Chain Lightning on the goblin wizards. Eight 14th level wizards die in one round. (GO WIZARD!!!!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having seen your exchange with E_B, I'd add two points.
1. Your wizard is using a *lot* of supplements
2. You forgot to account for secondary targets taking half damage (even empowered, 12d6 is unlikely to take out a 14th level wiz)
1. Yup. I'm sure he's the only wizard in all of D&D like that.
(but my examples are FRCS and T&B, hardly obscure)2. Nope. Half damage for secondary targets killed 'em all. As I said before, my DM's great. He never misses stuff like that. Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes you don't. When I'm done crying about it I'll tell you about the Mordenkainen's Disjunction my monk got nailed with (so many failed saves.
) Again, sorry about the formatting.
PS
Belen
Legend
I would disagree that your wizard was a "snap shot" of a core 3e wizard. A number of GMs I know do not allow the FR supplements in their game do the the power unbalance. FR is super high magic, high powergamer material. I do not allow the FR supplements in my homebrew world. It just does not make sense for the world.
In your case, you have a tricked out wizard with high powered items, races and PrCs. The wizard in question is not core rule, nor could such a wizard appear using only the core books. It sounds as if you run a very high magic campaign. Your example had the opportunity of planning and preparing every aspect of the assault.
Your example was a planned event, using supplemental material specific to a high magic world. This is not the norm for a 3e wizard who is clomping around a Dungeons picking general spells based on the need to be versatile for a variety of encounters.
The most common thing the wizard says in my game is "sorry, I did not memorize that today...give me 8 hours and I can handle this situation."
Wizards are rarely prepared for everything, hence having an adventuring party. In a situation where time is dependent, the wizard cannot prep super-encounters. Wizards in my game certainly could not pull off your example on the fly.
I loved your story and it was a great example of a planned encounter using the full abilities of a tricked out mage; however it does not fit when thinking about a generalized mage without prior knowledge of a situation can do.
Dave
In your case, you have a tricked out wizard with high powered items, races and PrCs. The wizard in question is not core rule, nor could such a wizard appear using only the core books. It sounds as if you run a very high magic campaign. Your example had the opportunity of planning and preparing every aspect of the assault.
Your example was a planned event, using supplemental material specific to a high magic world. This is not the norm for a 3e wizard who is clomping around a Dungeons picking general spells based on the need to be versatile for a variety of encounters.
The most common thing the wizard says in my game is "sorry, I did not memorize that today...give me 8 hours and I can handle this situation."
Wizards are rarely prepared for everything, hence having an adventuring party. In a situation where time is dependent, the wizard cannot prep super-encounters. Wizards in my game certainly could not pull off your example on the fly.
I loved your story and it was a great example of a planned encounter using the full abilities of a tricked out mage; however it does not fit when thinking about a generalized mage without prior knowledge of a situation can do.
Dave
Ralts Bloodthorne
First Post
Powergamer-Someone who includes all the magic they can, and builds a world of floating cities, powerful heroes, but still attempts some balance in the world.
Munchkin-Someone who builds outlandish heroes (Ala: Krull) and villians, a He-Man -esque world where there are actually little challenges, but enjoys playing that way.
Minimalist-Someone who dislikes heavy magic, and prefers low level spells and wizards, more in tune with medieval Europe.
RolePlayer-Someone who enjoys playing Roleplaying Games.
Wizards have always been deadly.
But then, so is a sword.
I've been reading the magic threads, and the archery threads. And the PrC threads.
Disturbing tendency...
"You don't play like me, you are a [use something from above] and aren't a real roleplayer, your opinion and concerns about what changes will do to your campaign are invalid."
(I'm not pointing out anyone in particular, or saying everyone is like this)
What I've been noticing is EVERYONE has been feeling betrayed by one aspect or another of 3E since it came out. Those that play Rangers felt cheated. Those that played Clerics felt cheated. Everyone feels cheated.
Broken & nerfed are tossed around.
"Clerics got nerfed."
"Clerics are broken."
"Wizards needs to fix this..."
Why?
Why should they? I think we're smart enough that Wizards doesn't need to hold our hand, we don't need them to tailor 3E to our particular campaign setting, and we sure as hell shouldn't expect everyone else to follow along.
I might not like your campaign.
You'd probably HATE mine.
Do the work yourself. Sit down as a group, and fix it.
We did in with AD&D, the changes we have to make in 3E D&D are nothing.
Munchkin-Someone who builds outlandish heroes (Ala: Krull) and villians, a He-Man -esque world where there are actually little challenges, but enjoys playing that way.
Minimalist-Someone who dislikes heavy magic, and prefers low level spells and wizards, more in tune with medieval Europe.
RolePlayer-Someone who enjoys playing Roleplaying Games.
Wizards have always been deadly.
But then, so is a sword.
I've been reading the magic threads, and the archery threads. And the PrC threads.
Disturbing tendency...
"You don't play like me, you are a [use something from above] and aren't a real roleplayer, your opinion and concerns about what changes will do to your campaign are invalid."
(I'm not pointing out anyone in particular, or saying everyone is like this)
What I've been noticing is EVERYONE has been feeling betrayed by one aspect or another of 3E since it came out. Those that play Rangers felt cheated. Those that played Clerics felt cheated. Everyone feels cheated.
Broken & nerfed are tossed around.
"Clerics got nerfed."
"Clerics are broken."
"Wizards needs to fix this..."
Why?
Why should they? I think we're smart enough that Wizards doesn't need to hold our hand, we don't need them to tailor 3E to our particular campaign setting, and we sure as hell shouldn't expect everyone else to follow along.
I might not like your campaign.
You'd probably HATE mine.
Do the work yourself. Sit down as a group, and fix it.
We did in with AD&D, the changes we have to make in 3E D&D are nothing.
Storminator
First Post
BelenUmeria said:
Of course he's not core rules only, but I would say he's pretty normal. FRCS is hardly obscure.
But if you're going to limit the wizard source material (but not the fighter) to core, shouldn't you expect the wizard players in your world to be limited? If you only allow core materials, there's a mighty small list of PrCs allowed. Certainly not the Blademaster you use in your examples.
As I've said in both this thread and the other on the topic, the incredible limits you see on the 3e wizard are part of YOUR game, not the 3e game. If you played a different style, one more tailored to wizards, you would see much more powerful wizards.
No one in your game ever scouts out the foes, checks the defenses and the layout and plans an assault for tomorrow? No one ever looks ahead and prepares exactly the right spells for the day?
Sure, some days you aren't ready. In our most recent encounter we hit a perfectly prepared opponent without out a hint of prep ourselves, not a single buff up (we've already switched to short duration spells), all the wrong spells, and we got trashed. The encounter wasn't even close to our level, and we got beat on hard. In fact, without the fighter, who is ready all day every day, we'd likely have all died (well, some of would have run
). But when we rest up and go back, we're going to inflict a world of pain.
PS
The_Gneech
Explorer
Some of what makes these arguments so heated, is the universality of D&D and the rarity of much anything else. It's possible to find other systems and/or players willing to play other systems, but it ain't easy. So, since D&D is almost the only party in town, everybody wants to make it the D&D they want to play ... which then leads to the people who don't want to play that way feeling like they're having another playing style shoved down their throat.
Alas, this is an example of a larger problem having to do with economies of scale and the like, and I don't see any easy fix. The best way to handle that, theoretically, I guess would be to make a system that's robust enough to take lots of tweaking without throwing it all out of whack.
Unfortunately, D&D isn't really that system. Changes too sweeping throw all sorts of balance things out the window. Take out the default assumption of buffing items, and at higher levels character stats are too low to be effective; take out the default assumption of healing spells, and combat becomes a lot more dangerous. Take out wondrous items, and spellcasters blow everybody else away, etc.
-The Gneech
Alas, this is an example of a larger problem having to do with economies of scale and the like, and I don't see any easy fix. The best way to handle that, theoretically, I guess would be to make a system that's robust enough to take lots of tweaking without throwing it all out of whack.
Unfortunately, D&D isn't really that system. Changes too sweeping throw all sorts of balance things out the window. Take out the default assumption of buffing items, and at higher levels character stats are too low to be effective; take out the default assumption of healing spells, and combat becomes a lot more dangerous. Take out wondrous items, and spellcasters blow everybody else away, etc.
-The Gneech
Belen
Legend
I do not limit the wizard to core only. I just do not allow the FR slice o' cheese. Besides, FR, is a flavored supplement designed for a specific world that is not Delos, my homebrew.
The blademaster in question was allowed the use of the class as he gave up all other weapons. He cannot use them, or he suffers ability loss. I thought that a fair compromise.
As for my players using the scry method, they have to KNOW who the enemy is to actually use the scry ability. They have yet to identify the evil web weaver and have run into a variety of lackey's with little info. They also tend to kill first regardless if any questions could be answered.
Poor sobs.
The few hints they have garnered have been hidden from such things as scry. They suspect, but have no proof, so they have to be careful.
The truth is that the enemies are layered. The BBEG is in turn controlled by another race which is under the influence of a mad and evil god. The campaign is laced with shades of grey, so things are never exactly as they seem.
The one time they had a chance to prep, the fighter, a very rash individual, decided to just go attack and thus ruined any chance to prep.
So yes, with a little planning, mages are hardly so uber. The mage in my group is among equals and overshadows no other class.
Dave
Besides, FR, is a flavored supplement designed for a specific world that is not Delos, my homebrew.The blademaster in question was allowed the use of the class as he gave up all other weapons. He cannot use them, or he suffers ability loss. I thought that a fair compromise.
As for my players using the scry method, they have to KNOW who the enemy is to actually use the scry ability. They have yet to identify the evil web weaver and have run into a variety of lackey's with little info. They also tend to kill first regardless if any questions could be answered.
Poor sobs.
The few hints they have garnered have been hidden from such things as scry. They suspect, but have no proof, so they have to be careful.
The truth is that the enemies are layered. The BBEG is in turn controlled by another race which is under the influence of a mad and evil god. The campaign is laced with shades of grey, so things are never exactly as they seem.
The one time they had a chance to prep, the fighter, a very rash individual, decided to just go attack and thus ruined any chance to prep.
So yes, with a little planning, mages are hardly so uber. The mage in my group is among equals and overshadows no other class.
Dave
Storminator
First Post
BelenUmeria,
Is there anything in your last post that refutes my claim that it's the way your group plays and not the rules that makes wizards weak? You seem to be making my point. Rashness, piss poor planning and info gathering, and ruined plans hardly showcase the wizard. It seems to me that it's not some planning on your part that's whacking the wizard, it's miserable play by your players.
I think limiting the blademaster to his chosen weapon is only fair if you sunder it every now and again. If the BBEG has watched this group, his minions should be breaking or stealing the blademaster's weapon every chance they get. Then allowing the class would be fair.
Are you now saying your mage is an equal? Because it seemed to me you were saying he was worthless. That's the point I'm contesting. If you're saying he's just one of the group, I'll go along with that.
PS
Is there anything in your last post that refutes my claim that it's the way your group plays and not the rules that makes wizards weak? You seem to be making my point. Rashness, piss poor planning and info gathering, and ruined plans hardly showcase the wizard. It seems to me that it's not some planning on your part that's whacking the wizard, it's miserable play by your players.
I think limiting the blademaster to his chosen weapon is only fair if you sunder it every now and again. If the BBEG has watched this group, his minions should be breaking or stealing the blademaster's weapon every chance they get. Then allowing the class would be fair.
Are you now saying your mage is an equal? Because it seemed to me you were saying he was worthless. That's the point I'm contesting. If you're saying he's just one of the group, I'll go along with that.
PS
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