Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant (3.5)

[Shard O'Glase]

Check out the new spells at the WOTC site.

They won't be particularly effective against casters, but will be brutal against melee types (especially as the barbarian enters Greater Rage). I say the balance between the two is well in hand.

I don't have my books here but what are the penalties for fatigue or exausted. -2 or -4 I suspect.(maybe only partial actions or the 3.5 equiv) So um a no save blast putting those melle types at -X to all there actions is nice especially with the no save. But unless its a really big penalty 5th level nice, not in my book. Now if it reduces the people to non full actions or whatever its failry bad assed.

Also the one on one thing isn't what we're talking about. I could care less what a wizard can do against a fighter in a brawl, what I care about is what they bring to the table as part of a team. And a paultry penalty to the opponents with no save isn't worth bringing to the table. Now if its a big penalty(and there ar eother spells like these) then yeah its great they can bring something to the teamwork table other than crafting something for the doers in the party.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Fatigued: -2 to Str and Dex for eight hours, rest 1 hour to overcome.

Exhausted: -6 to Str and Dex, move at half speed, rest 1 hour to become fatigued

(plus doing something strenuous while fatigued puts you into the exhausted category)

Pretty nasty given no save -- Wave of Exhaustion can effectively take down most of the opposing party (especially annoying if you're the barbarian who just Greater Raged!).

I think the spell levels are appropriate given (1) multiple targets, (2) long duration, and (3) no saving throw.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Fatigued: -2 to Str and Dex for eight hours, rest 1 hour to overcome.

Exhausted: -6 to Str and Dex, move at half speed, rest 1 hour to become fatigued

(plus doing something strenuous while fatigued puts you into the exhausted category)

Pretty nasty given no save -- Wave of Exhaustion can effectively take down most of the opposing party (especially annoying if you're the barbarian who just Greater Raged!).

I think the spell levels are appropriate given (1) multiple targets, (2) long duration, and (3) no saving throw.

So lets see -1 to hit and damage maybe -2 to damage, and a -1 to AC and reflex saves to a group no save for a 5th level spell. Nice NPC spell with the duration but for the PCs it sucks butt.

Now the 7th level version again sucks butt on the penalty level excpet for one thign at -6 you have a decent hance to bump people out of feat pre-reqs which can seriously haper the figher class and others who heavily relly upon their cool feats. And the 1/2 move rocks.

 

[Jalkain]

Now the 7th level version again sucks butt on the penalty level excpet for one thign at -6 you have a decent hance to bump people out of feat pre-reqs which can seriously haper the figher class and others who heavily relly upon their cool feats. And the 1/2 move rocks.

So what you're saying is that it sucks butt, as it only inflicts -3 penalties to hit, damage, AC, missile attacks, reflex saves, plus possible loss of feats, and movement reduction.

All in an area of effect, with no save, and long duration.

You're a hard man to please...

 

[Brown Jenkin]

3E spell Recitation from Defenders of the Faith.

4th Level Cleric
60 radius Burst (not cone)
1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
SR: Yes

-2 to opponents attacks and saves, +2 to allies attacks and saves +3 if worship same god.

This 4th level spell has the same basic effects but better than the new spells. Damage is not reduced but attacks and all save (not just reflex) are. AC of opponents is also effectively reduced by 2 or 3 from the bonus to allies. Additionally allies get +2 or +3 to all saves as well. The area is better and while it is 1 round/level how many opponents do you face will live long enough that the instantaneous effect will make a diffrence. The durration is great for NPCs but not PCs. While 1/2 movement (not 1 movement action out of 2) is nice is it realy worth 3 spell levels. To me this seems like another example of spells being toned down.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

For a 7th level spell.

Let's take a look at what's available at 3rd level:

Slow: standard actions only, -1 to hit, -1 AC, -1 Reflex saves, 1rd/level duration (plenty for one combat).

The penalties are only slightly less and it allows a will save. I don't think I'd trade four spell levels for the lack of a save.

Other 7th level spells:
Banishment, Prismatic Spray, Finger of Death (the 3.5e version of this may be worthless if it's nerfed to damage only), Summon Monster VII (1d3 celestial dire bears), Power Word Stun (also no save), and Reverse Gravity (also no save).

I think it's pretty clear that the waves of exhaustion spell is more along the lines of Slow than the other 7th level spells. Waves of Fatigue is definitely on a par with Slow. Waves of exhaustion is obviously more powerful than slow but not powerful enough to be 7th level. Had they knocked the first spell down to 3rd level and the second spell down to 5th, they would have been useful additions. As it is, the only way they'll be useful is if Wizards makes all the other spells suck as badly as these two.

The real irony of course, is that, like Sunder and Mordenkeinen's Disjunction (PCs are almost always better off with a chained greater dispelling than Mord's disjunction but are always better off going up against the chained dispelling than Mord's disjunction), these spells have real teeth if used against PCs. Since NPCs can be expected to lose a fight, the hour or two hour rest required for recovery is significantly better than a 1 min/level duration spell against them. Thus the inclusion of these spells in the game will constitute a major powerdown for all PCs even while the ability to use them does nothing to power the PCs up.

So what you're saying is that it sucks butt, as it only inflicts -3 penalties to hit, damage, AC, missile attacks, reflex saves, plus possible loss of feats, and movement reduction.

All in an area of effect, with no save, and long duration.

You're a hard man to please...

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Elder-Basilisk pretty much nailed it. Once you crunch the numbers you see these spells just don't live up to their respective spell levels. But I suppose us number crunchers are notoriously hard to please.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

The real irony of course, is that, like Sunder and Mordenkeinen's Disjunction (PCs are almost always better off with a chained greater dispelling than Mord's disjunction but are always better off going up against the chained dispelling than Mord's disjunction), these spells have real teeth if used against PCs. Since NPCs can be expected to lose a fight, the hour or two hour rest required for recovery is significantly better than a 1 min/level duration spell against them. Thus the inclusion of these spells in the game will constitute a major powerdown for all PCs even while the ability to use them does nothing to power the PCs up.

Exactly why I said the spells were appropriate for their level.

Do you want the bad guys to have these spells at two levels lower? I don't think so. They're not no-brainer, all purpose spells -- you'd prepare one with a specific purpose in mind (like taking on a horde of barbarians). A spell that's weak for its level is a problem because??

As a DM, I chuckle to think how bad it will be to be on the receiving end of one of these ... for eight hours.

 

[JoeBlank]

Fatigued: -2 to Str and Dex for eight hours, rest 1 hour to overcome.

Exhausted: -6 to Str and Dex, move at half speed, rest 1 hour to become fatigued

(plus doing something strenuous while fatigued puts you into the exhausted category)

How, if at all, is "doing something strenuous" defined? If engaging in combat is strenuous, then a lot of fatigued guys are going to be exhausted the next round. If the spell gives oppenents that big of a disincentive to engage in combat it is certainly worth 5th level.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

fatigue = minor penalty for 1 hour so not a big deal. Exauhstion is for a long time so is brutal vs the pcs but still weak enough that I have a hard time justiying it in anything but a trap. But even then I suspect the response wont be oh no where screwed it will be, exausted huh. Well crank out the mansion we're taking a nap, or memorize a near by spot lets teleport away and rest etc.

So in the narrow circumstances where 1. a enemy is willing to cast a weak spell in order to hamper the party later on even though that wasted spell may cost him/her his life I'll see it cast. Or maybe some delaying tactic ambush.

2 it will mean something only when there's some form of time limit, you must get to X in time to save Y etc. Which if the party is aware of they push on and take some hurts.(though there may be some fatigue curing spells which would be perfect for scrolls) And if the party isn't aware of the DM gets to chortle, your too late Mr. X already was here/escaped/killed your moma bwahahahah my evil GM plot goes according to plan so much for the medling players making me improv the rest of the adventure.