Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant (3.5)

Cloudgatherer,
I agree with you 100%. I have yet to see any 3.5 spoilers related to spellcasters that I have thought made them a better, more balanced class. Maybe WOTC is saving them for later.

The best thing about 3E was that magic users could actually be useful at low levels, now it looks like WOTC is going back to making them useless until mid to high levels.

IMO, WOTC is making too many changes to 3E. Nothing was wrong with the system that a few minor tweaks wouldn't fix.

If I wanted to play 2E I'd still be playing it. I'm still going to be open-minded about it though (even if it sounds like I'm not ;) ) until I see the finished product.
 

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Let's be clear here, guys. Spellcasters aren't being nerfed: A few spells that are, in the eyes of many gamers, broken (disintegrate, haste, harm, polymorph, the buffs) are being nerfed. If you think that a caster must have these to be effective, I feel very, very bad for you.

It sounds like MM, mage armor, invisibility, fly, and the blasting spells (with the exception of horrid wilting) will be as good as ever, as will the divinations, the mind-affecting spells (except for hold person), and the illusions. This seems perfectly fine, from the spellcaster's perspective. It's still quite easy to avoid melee altogether and do LOTS of damage. The difference is that there will be fewer broken combos to exploit. As a DM, that makes me VERY happy.

The one nerf to which I really object is bringing Spell Focus down from +2 to +1. I think that's just too rough, unless SF now applies to multiple schools.

There are a few nerfs that I will not use IMC:

-Buff spells: I'm going to drop these to 10 min/level rather than 1 min/level, since I agree with Monte.
-Horrid wilting: I'll let it stay at d8s, but I'll drop the level cap to 20.
-Disintegrate: While I like the change to damage dice from a balance perspective, I'm fond of the flavor of this particular insta-kill... and it targets the strong save of most fighter-types, after all. Might keep it as is.
 

The premise of this thread is wrong.

Spellcasters are being nerfed--no question about that (although, with all the talk of Save or Die spells, I wonder if Wizards will have any good ones left before 9th level Destruction is already dramatically superior to Finger of Death, and Disintegrate was the wizard's only real save or die before that (I don't count Phantasmal Killer with it's two saves or Cloudkill and Circle of Death because their HD caps make them useless against CR appropriate monsters)).

Melee characters are getting slightly beefed up in class abilities. However, the changes to Haste (which in 3e allowed a full attack nearly every round, enabling them to pull even with archers), the changes to DR (a single +x weapon and maybe a backup won't be enough anymore; characters will need to shell out for a +x silver weapon, a +x cold iron weapon, a +x adamantium weapon, and a +x moldy cheese weapon in order to be effective--the net effect being that the character can't afford to have the same +x anymore and gets even fewer full attack actions unless he takes Quickdraw) and the changes to the buffs (for all that clerics and wizards cast them, they primarily BENEFITED melee characters) probably will result in a net decrease in their power--if not, they break even at best. Taking into account monsters' higher ACs, attack bonusses, and damages, I doubt melee characters will break even.

Archers, however are the ones that are getting the real boons. I imagine superior weapon focus and greater weapon specialization will work on bows just as well as melee weapons. The new haste is even more useful to archers than the 3e haste was since they rarely have to move and usually get full attacks anyway. And, if they do have to move, Haste now doubles their speed. Just a partial action left you say, not to fear, archers can now do almost their full attack damage through Manyshot. (I'm not looking forward to seeing parties of archers with Shoot on the Run and manyshot using haste to machine gun everything to death without ever coming into melee range). And the new DR? Not to worry, it's not significantly more expensive to cast Greater Magic Weapon on a bundle of 10 normal, 10 silver, 10 cold iron, 10 adamantium, and 10 moldy cheese arrows than it is to cast it on 50 normal arrows (at least not so much more that it will effect the enchantments archers can afford on their bows--which conveniently add damage equally to any arrow they nock). The only downside I forsee for archers is that, now the DR formula is X/magic or X/adamantine instead of x/+y, Protection from Arrows may be adjusted so as to still be useful when GMW enters the picture. (DR 10/Piercing would do it :) )

It's archers not melee characters who will be the favored sons of 3.5e
 


Elder-Basilisk said:
The premise of this thread is wrong.

Spellcasters are being nerfed--no question about that (although, with all the talk of Save or Die spells, I wonder if Wizards will have any good ones left before 9th level Destruction is already dramatically superior to Finger of Death, and Disintegrate was the wizard's only real save or die before that (I don't count Phantasmal Killer with it's two saves or Cloudkill and Circle of Death because their HD caps make them useless against CR appropriate monsters)).

Polymorph other. Which I banned IMC for this reason. :cool:

And the new DR? Not to worry, it's not significantly more expensive to cast Greater Magic Weapon on a bundle of 10 normal, 10 silver, 10 cold iron, 10 adamantium, and 10 moldy cheese arrows than it is to cast it on 50 normal arrows

Eh. Why on earth would you want to put GMW on the arrow, when the DR is in the material? The cost is in getting those adamantium, cold iron and whatnot arrows in the first place. Not to mention that bow and arrow bonuses won't stack anymore, apparently.
 

Man, you spellcasters think you have it tough?

Look at the 3.5e swords fighters are supposed to use....


nerf.jpg
 

Cloudgatherer said:
- disintegrate changed to 40d6 (avg 120) instead of death (bad change, IMO)

Point-of-Law: We don't actually know exactly what the changes to disintegrate are, yet. All we have to go on is the information contained within the stat block of the Githyanki's Lich Queen, who, among other things, is a 20th level sorceror.

More than likely, the spell will be 2d6/caster level or 20d6+1d6/caster level. Both of which are powerful to kill about the more powerful beasts and BBEGs, if they fail their saves, and will likely cause a save vs. massive damage, as well.
 


I agree with you 100%. I have yet to see any 3.5 spoilers related to spellcasters that I have thought made them a better, more balanced class. Maybe WOTC is saving them for later.

Mystic Theurge. Multiclass casters at least are getting a significant boon, especially if the MT design philosophy carries over into the others.

I'll bet that this will not decrease the spellcaster's power. It will merely change the most effective spellcaster strategy - sort of like how the most effective deck type changes every time a new Magic the Gathering set comes out. The spellcasters might actually have to think for a while, at least until the new 'most effective builds' become common knowledge.

J
 

Unless they've stripped bows of their ability to confer elemental enhancements on their arrows, that won't make much difference. It will just mean that archers now favor +1 Holy Chaotic Thundering flaming shock frost bows instead of +5 Holy Flaming Frost Shock bows.

It will make a difference but not enough of one to offset the DR changes, Manyshot, superior weapon specialization, and the changes to Haste.

BryonD said:
it has been revealed that weapon and ammo enhancements no longer stack
 

spellcasters

Originally posted by Brown Jenkin "Is there any time that a wizard should outshine the fighter?"

Yes. The high-level wizard outshines the high level fighter in most combat situations, save for a few (such as really long combats and fighting magic resistant opponents). Consequently, while the fighter tends to be more combat-effective at low levels, the wizard can do a lot of interesting stuff outside of combat with their spells (or still do damage in combat if they choose). I'm not saying wizards are completely uber, but I don't think they are overall weaker than fighters either. From what info on 3.5 I have seen, I just don't feel they are being nerfed at all.
 

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