Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant (3.5)

[Apok]

If it's damage-capacity and the general uselessness of the Quicken Spell feat that's got you down, try these house-rules;

1. All multi-dice, damage-variable spells have their damage caps increased by 50%. This will help to level out the damage-imbalance that tends to exist between casters and fighters.

2. Reduce the level modifier of Quicken Spell to 3 or 2, depending on just how soon you want your spellcasters chucking out 2 spells per round. Dropping it to 2 seems reasonable, as a 5th level mage will then be blowing a 3rd level slot for a quickened 1st level spell, which is around the same time a 3.0 Wizard would be casting Haste to fling around dual Magic Missiles or what have you. This keeps spellcasters dangerous at lower levels but scales alot better than the original Haste spell and we all know what atrocities smart players can effect with Haste and multiple 9th level spells.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Bah, I thought this thread looked familiar...

Posted a shorter version of this down below.

 

[Apok]

The only way I can see it happening is if criticals are taken into account.

Str 22
Greatsword +5, coupla energy enchantments
Weapon Spec

7 (weapon) + 5 (enhancement) + 9 (Str) + 2 (Spec) + 7 (energy) = 30 points on average

Assuming 3 attacks per round, all of which hit, that's 90 points on average per round. If one of the hits is a critical, that's 120 points.

Alternatively, he could mean 120 points total on a bunch of mooks via Whirlwind Attack or Great Cleave.

He could also have a weapon that's gimped out for getting crits. Figure same stats, but use a Rapier or Falchion with the Keen enchantment and Improved Critical. That would significantly increase your chances of doing crit damage. True, neither of those weapons does as much base damage as a Greatsword, but in the end it's the solid numerical modifiers (Strength and Enhancement bonuses) that mean the most, especially with crits.

Lessee...

Barbarian w/ 22 Strength, plus extra 4 from Rage gives him 26 (more if you figure that 3.5 Greater Rage kicks in at 11th level), Falchion +5, Keen w/ an energy booster, and since this guy's taken 4 levels of figher to be fully tweaked, he's got Weapon Spec.

5 (weapon) + 12 (strength) + 5 (enhancement) + 4 (energy) +2 (specialized) = 28 per hit, which is less normal damage by 2 points than your build, but a much greater chance of hitting multiple crits.

Figure on a roll of 12 or better it's a possible crit. I don't have time to do all the percentages, but I can see how pulling 120 damage wouldn't be all that tough. Pretty nasty, especially considering the fact that we haven't even begun to tap feats, spells, and abilities from 3rd party material.

 

[drnuncheon]

The fighter still does 120 a round though. Funny that fighter feats don't take higher level slots though

They do. What do you think that "Prerequisistes" line is all about?

J

 

[Belen]

The actual stats are:

Strength: 26

Fighter 7
Ranger 1
Blademaster 4

Blade: (1d10) Katana +1, Flaming, Keen

Use the weapon two-handed for a 1.5 strength increase.

Str: +12, Specialization: +2, Improved Crit, Improved threat (blademaster ability), Parting the silk (3/day): max damage.

Anywho...minimum damage without rolling is like 20. I do not have his sheet here, and I am missing another ability.

The mage, who is not a powergamer, just cannot complete.

 

[Michael Tree]

So spells being nerfed are having an effect of relegating low and mid level mages to the lower echelons. High level mages - replete with tons of save or die spells, still rule the roost. Especially if they are well prepared with a good spell selection.

It looks like the 3.5 revisions will have the exact opposite effect to what you're saying here. There are significantly less save or die spells in 3.5 (just look at Disintigrate), high level casters can no longer easily toss 2 massively powerful spells/round, nor have every single one of their attributes buffed up the wazoo.

The spells that we've seen changed don't really affect the power of low level spellcasters. In 3.0 low level spellcasters didn't have haste until 5th or 6th level, and couldn't afford to throw two spells/round, without using up all their spells and being useless for the rest of the adventure. It's only high level casters, who had spells to spare, who could use haste with impunity.

 

[buzzard]

Buzz,

Half hp for you is death for a wizard. They have a reason to run away.

You did not get my point. The Wizard does not stand up front. He never stands up front. He doesn't have to take the pounding (or poison, or level drain, or ability drain, etc.). I can accept that he who takes the risks gets the rewards.
Also, when I said rarely comes out with more than 1/2 HP, does not imply 1/2 left after these battles. Sometimes it's only 1/2 down. Most times he's down, or in the single digits. He joined the campaign at high level and dropped in his first combat.

buzzard

 

[Darth Shoju]

spellcasters

I dunno, to me spellcasters have always seemed to be pretty powerful. In the campaign I used to run, the party wizard typically did the most damage in a combat. If given a long combat, the fighter-types could do more damage total (thanks many hits of moderate damage), but the wizard would most often end the fight quickly with a few high-damage spells. While the wizard generally couldn't do it all himself, his "big boom" spells weakened the opponents to the point where they were quickly finished off by the fighters with their less damaging attacks.

The wizard's favorite tactics were Haste first round, followed by improved invisibility (in the same round...cast as his partial action from the haste), then fly. He typically kept a few damage spells memorized as Sonic so fewer creatures were resistant to them. Combined with Horrid Wilting and Disintigrate, he was a terrifying force. He also liked to keep a Quickened True strike, so he could use it to deliver Vampiric touch (through his familiar or a Spectral Hand). Frankly, a Hasted, Invisible Flying wizard with a quickened spell or two is just a damage machine. Now, I did have ways of taking him down (hehe Balors are fun), and he did get himself in trouble once or twice (rolling a 1 on his True Striked Vampiric Touch standing right in front of a Divine Mighted evil cleric for one), but overall he was the designated butt-kicker.

I've never seen a fighter match that kind of output in a combat. Where a fighter really shines is in the low levels, but after that the spellcasters take over. At high levels, the only way the fighter can come through is in long combats (where the wizard has blown his big spells) or if the party is fighting particularily magic-resistant opponents (like constructs). Not only that, but even setting aside the damage spells, wizards can do powerful things. This same wizard in question made excellent use of scrying and teleport...wait until your opponent is asleep, teleport in while invisible and go to town. Or even just the ability to scy a location and scout ahead is incredibly useful.

From a warrior's POV (I play a barbarian fighter in another campaign), I can't tell you how annoying it is to be Held, Dominated, or subject to Fear. These things take a character right out of a fight, which is rarely too much fun. And trying to combat an invisible flying mage is no piece of cake either. True, fighters can counter these things (potions of see-invisibility, boots of flying, higher wisdom scores, etc.) but such compensations can only go so far (one Mordenkainen's disjunction later and your items are toast) and tend to weaken your damage output or defensive capability.

Ultimately, I don't think Wizards are extremely over powered, but they definately out-distance fighters at higher level. They can do massive damage and are always useful outside of combat. From what I've seen of 3.5e (which isn't definitive yet of course), the wizards are being scaled-down without being nerfed, and I think utlimately things will be more balanced between the spellcasters and tanks.Of course, this just my opinion based off what info is availble. We'll have to see what the situation is like after 3.5 is released.

 

[Enkhidu]

...The mage, who is not a powergamer, just cannot complete...

That the fighter is tricked out seems fairly obvious to me from the stats posted. Might that be the real problem? Especially the usage of a powerful PrC from the Wheel of Time book?

Also, the strength bonus will be much harder to rely on in 3.5 - you might want to adjust for that when making comparisons.

 

[drnuncheon]

The actual stats are:
The mage, who is not a powergamer, just cannot complete.

So basically, you are saying that the system should be specially optimized for your group, because the guy you have playing a fighter is better at tweaking the numbers than the guy that you have playing a mage?

I'm sure WOTC will see that as reasonable.

J