Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant (3.5)

[hong]

The actual stats are:

Strength: 26

Fighter 7
Ranger 1
Blademaster 4

Blade: (1d10) Katana +1, Flaming, Keen

Use the weapon two-handed for a 1.5 strength increase.

Str: +12, Specialization: +2, Improved Crit, Improved threat (blademaster ability), Parting the silk (3/day): max damage.

Anywho...minimum damage without rolling is like 20. I do not have his sheet here, and I am missing another ability.

The mage, who is not a powergamer, just cannot complete.

Well, duh. If you have one player who's a powergamer, and one who isn't, then OF COURSE the powergaming guy is going to have a more uber character. That's the whole point of powergaming.

We also have a WoT blademaster in our high-level (18th) game. I'm not sure on his stats, but on a good day he can dish out 120-150 points of damage in a round, just like your one. In fact, he did exactly that to an uber-demon a few sessions ago; it was awe-inspiring, and our group isn't exactly short on powergamers.

In the last couple of sessions though, he's spent most of the combats RUNNING AWAY from the big monsters. Why? We're doing the Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and basically all of the monsters are undead. This means his critical hit schtick becomes useless. To make matters worse, he doesn't have a weapon buff enough to penetrate their DR (the DM threw in a few epic monsters to spice things up), and since he doesn't have Power Attack either, all of a sudden his damage output drops from 150 to about zero. However, he's still just as vulnerable to all the usual melee hazards, viz energy drain, ability drain, etcetera.

So who's been taking out the big monsters, since the tanks aren't up to the job? Well, my archer is contributing a bit, but it's the spellcasters, basically. Sunbeam, sunburst and disintegrate still work fine against undead, and with Greater Spell Penetration, even SR 34 isn't impervious.

I just think you haven't seen what a well-constructed wizard or cleric is capable of in 3E.

 

[Talix]

After agreeing that we should really see the books and play with them for a while before coming to any conclusions, I would just like to point out that the 40d6 example for Disintigrate was for a 25th level caster. The very maximum allowed. The vast majority of mages won't have to roll anywhere near that amount, I suspect.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Hm... I'll be brief...

Melee is being improved in 3.5
- Ranger "improved" (many changes)
- Paladin "improved" (more smites)
- Barbarians "improved" (DR earlier, rage)
- Monk "improved" (DR system helps here)

Meanwhile, it is my understanding casters remain unchanged (clerics, wizards, sorcerers), and the druid may be changed somewhat. In addition, we have several "reductions" on the spellcaster side:
- Haste nerfed (no 2 spells/round w/o quicken)
- Hold spells allow save/round
- disintegrate changed to 40d6 (avg 120) instead of death (bad change, IMO)
- Buff spells reduced in duration, making them less valuable
- Polymorph toned down (again)
- Spell Focus reduced to +1 (Greater to +2)

Just based on what we've seen (not the entire system), melee characters are being encouraged, while spellcasters are being discouraged (in comparing to 3e).

Later.

 

[Aaron L]

I happen to have a 7th level grey elven evoker. He has a 21 intelligence and a +2 intelligence item. As feats he has spellcasting prodigy, spell focus: evo, greater spell focus: evo, and lace spell: holy (from the book of eldritch might, raises saves for evil creatures by 2). The save against his 4th level evocation spells is 25, 27 if the target is evil. Add in Spell Enhancer from Magic of Faerun, and thats 27, 29 if they're evil.

Fighters are chumps with swords.

Of course, he also has a sword, and so when it is necessary he goes into combat, with Mage Armor and Shield cast (which I admit is being nerfed), and False Life (from Tome and Blood) and does decently even with his 12 strength. I see no evidence at all of wizards or any other caster being made too weak, even with the changes coming.

 

[Tom Cashel]

What does "nerfed" mean?

 

[Aaron L]

Made soft like a Nerf ball. IE: weaker.

 

[Technik4]

Re: Cloudgatherer

You are taking into account the changes noted from player's handbook but not changes to monsters.

-Monster ACs are up
-Monster SR is down (compared to things we know from before)
-Elemental Resistances are down
-Immunities are being reworked

All of that is in favor of magic but harmful to melee. The real test will be if all the changes mesh well enough so that noone feels left out.

Technik

 

[Guacamole]

awe geez

Should I spank you all now or is it enough to say that if you don't like it, don't use it. I can't say that I'm about to run out and buy 3.5 since my books have nary a dent in 'em... They're still good. They still work fine. I'll keep haste the way it is, thank-you. The changes in the buffs are welcome. The Mystic Theurge levels stack with cleric levels when determining domain powers. They get bonus feats at 5 and 10. Socerers per Monte.

It's yer game. Change what you want. Keep what you want.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Re: spellcasters

I've never seen a fighter match that kind of output in a combat. Where a fighter really shines is in the low levels, but after that the spellcasters take over. At high levels, the only way the fighter can come through is in long combats (where the wizard has blown his big spells) or if the party is fighting particularily magic-resistant opponents (like constructs). Not only that, but even setting aside the damage spells, wizards can do powerful things. This same wizard in question made excellent use of scrying and teleport...wait until your opponent is asleep, teleport in while invisible and go to town. Or even just the ability to scy a location and scout ahead is incredibly useful.

So the fighter outshines the wizard at low levels and sometimes at high levels as well. But since the wizard outshines the fighter at other times at higher levels they need to be scaled back. Do I have this right? Is there any time that a wizard should outshine the fighter?

 

[BryonD]

Re: Re: spellcasters

So the fighter outshines the wizard at low levels and sometimes at high levels as well. But since the wizard outshines the fighter at other times at higher levels they need to be scaled back. Do I have this right? Is there any time that a wizard should outshine the fighter?

You interpretation of what he said is significantly different than what I see when I read it.