D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

[DND_Reborn]

That fixes nothing. It's just saying you'll get to be useful once the Real Heroes are too tired to continue.

Just let martials be fun instead of 100% mundane as seen through the lens of game designers who do not know what the human body is full capable of.

I guess I am just not seeing the problem. In our 1-20 game, we had mighty casters and mighty martials and everyone had fun with their characters. Some shined at some moments and other shined in their turn. shrug

We had a fighter (champion)/ rogue (assassin) who was a beast in combat, and our sorcerer (draconic bloodline) / druid (moon) who kicked butt with some key spells and wildshaping. My own cleric (knowledge)/ rogue (scout) /wizard (war magic) certainly got her moments in the spot-light as well and even the barbarian (totem) / fighter (cavalier) often did his part to vanquish our enemies and save the day!

Were the martials doing "super hero" type stuff? Sure, in their way! When the fighter/rogue got a critical hit after sneaking up on a hill giant and killing it in a single blow (well over 20 dice, plus bonuses, and he did roll pretty well...), that seemed pretty awesome to everyone at the table! I know my PC couldn't have done anything do to that. Sure, he got lucky with the crit and the dice rolls, but again, there is nothing, nothing, I could have done to kill a hill giant in a single round.

The point is a master swordsman, master archer, high lord, barbarian king, and master thief shold be as fantastical as an archmage, high priest, and high druid.

Aren't they, though, again in their own way? They have been IME, anyway. The barbarian/fighter I mentioned above could withstand so much punishment it was ridiculous! Our sorcerer/druid couldn't do it, but he had other things he could do.

It seems to me like people are focused more on what their character's can't do then on what makes those characters great.

But, since YMMV and you see an issue, at what point does it break down? When, in your view, do the martials stop being as fantastical as the non-martials?

 

[Minigiant]

Aren't they, though, again in their own way? They have been IME, anyway. The barbarian/fighter I mentioned above could withstand so much punishment it was ridiculous! Our sorcerer/druid couldn't do it, but he had other things he could do.

I didn't say they weren't fantastic.
I said they aren't as fantastic.

The D&D Master Swordmen isn't as fantastic as an Archmage. D&D doesn't even have a Master Swordsman entry in the official books.

It seems to me like people are focused more on what their character's can't do then on what makes those characters great.

It's more that people don't like the fantastical element that D&D focuses on for martial characters.
It's really just toughness, evasion, an magic items. The paragon or epic tier martial characterr is a tank with 5-10 magic items

Other media show other forms of martial fantasticalness and D&D doesn't replicate many other them.

But, since YMMV and you see an issue, at what point does it break down? When, in your view, do the martials stop being as fantastical as the non-martials?

level 12.

Quite frankly most martial class feature postlevel 12 or so are just level 2-8 class features use to fill dead levels.
Like a ranger gets the abilty to fight blind att level 18. They can also get practically the same ability at level 2 as a fighting style or 4th level from a feat.
The fighter just get extra uses of it's low level stuff. Not even stronger version. Just extra uses.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

Do you get the point? Wizards arent required to explain anything at all.

Lol, of course I get the point!

Except that Wizards are required to explain things, they have a magical supernatural power source called "Arcane magic" that enables them to do things. There is a great deal of the game universe devoted to explaining how this works. It's internally consistent.

And the other supernatural classes / subclasses are (or should be) all the same. Look at the Rune Knight, how can it do supernatural things like grow huge? You know how, it's right there in the write up, they inscribe Ancient Giant Runes which hold power.

Anyone wanting to do supernatural things needs to establish what it is that let's them do it.

So, if a player creates a character with a concept that is explicitly a martial archetype with no supernatural power source, and then then says "Oh but I want to be supernatural too, all the cool kids are doing it", a question naturally arises, which is: "OK, what do you want the supernatural power source to be?". They could make a deal with a demon, befriend nature spirits, revere their ancestors, study to cast spells, petition a deity, learn a fragment of the original song of creation, get infected with a mystical disease, get bitten by a radioactive spider, etc, the possibilities are endless.

What they don't get to do, is say, here's my char concept but I just want to do awesome things outside my concept because I want to.

Let me give you a real world example :
Driving a car is a pretty darn cool thing to do. So a kid says I want to drive a car too. OK, you need to get a car, lean how to drive it, and get your license. If that kid says "Aww but I don't want to have to do any of that, I just want to be able to zoom around at 100 km/hr by myself without a car or a license" you would say what to them?

He is unbeknownst to even himself a form of mage and doesnt even know it, this is actually a reason I have read, in a novel not that long ago, it explained bursts of superhuman strength and breaking spells easily, he did not know he had eldar blood either.

The further in the story the more things he learns to do with it... discovers his magic enhanced life force physical body can also use things (like enhancer potions) that would be dangerous to most casters. Counter spells often will not work on things he does because it is idiosyncratic enough.

Whereas this is a great char concept! I would love someone playing a concept like this in my world and would fully support them!

Of course, this char mechanically is NOT a pure martial! The entire story that concept is telling is a magical warrior! That's the exact point I'm making

 

[DND_Reborn]

First, thanks for the civil response. It is appreciated and I can respect your view point.

It's more that people don't like the fantastical element that D&D focuses on for martial characters.

True enough. Since I happen to be one of those people, there isn't much I can contribute for people who want it.

I want magic to be magical and mundane to be mundane (even if awesomely heroic!).

evel 12.

Quite frankly most martial class feature postlevel 12 or so are just level 2-8 class features use to fill dead levels.
Like a ranger gets the abilty to fight blind att level 18. They can also get practically the same ability at level 2 as a fighting style or 4th level from a feat.
The fighter just get extra uses of it's low level stuff. Not even stronger version. Just extra uses.

This I can get behind 100%, though.

I do feel like a lot of the higher level features for many martial classes are fairly lackluster. To a certain point, even some of the caster features at 12+ level aren't that great, although there are definitely notable exceptions that are great!

 

[Asisreo]

I guess I am just not seeing the problem. In our 1-20 game, we had mighty casters and mighty martials and everyone had fun with their characters. Some shined at some moments and other shined in their turn. shrug

Y'know why there were no complaints?

Either your players didn't really care or they were playing within a playstyle they consider fun. Because players usually already know what they're getting into.

Actually, that's another point I could make. People forget D&D 5e is not a pure fantasy TTRPG. It's a dungeon-crawl JRPG.

There's actually very few examples of a dungeon-crawling fighter in fiction outside of the specific niche of dungeon-crawling fantasy, which is a very niche genre.

People say Fighters should be herculean...but Hercules isn't a dungeon delver. He's really a taskmaster, as are other mythical heroes. So Hercules' abilities wouldn't be all that consistent in a dungeon-crawl environment. Helpful, yes. But it's not a consistent fiction.

High-level D&D basically means high-level magic. But it's magic all players can really interact with. The fantasy of high-level D&D is magic being flung everywhere. If your character isn't inherently magical, they'll have some magic items in their toolbelt as well.

But why is this the flavor? Because the designers decided that's what they want. It's not actually bad, either. It's all subjective. With anything subjective, it's a matter of taste.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Lol, of course I get the point!

Except that Wizards are required to explain things, they have a magical supernatural power source called "Arcane magic" that enables them to do things. There is a great deal of the game universe devoted to explaining how this works. It's internally consistent.

That's pretty much the problem.

Mages get a pass because they can just say 'magic' and they get everything.

Warriors aren't allowed a pass by saying 'awesome'. They don't even get to reach peak human capability except if you assume HP are meat points, which they aren't.

Here's what I want:

I want to leap fifty feet to bisect some chump enemy soldier with my gigantic sword which makes Shadversity cry.

I want to wade into said chump soldiers and literally reap them like wheat. Just mow them down, multiples per turn. Bystanders should spontaneously all agree on the words 'blood tornado' when asked to describe me.

I want to let out a battle cry that makes rank and file guys soil themselves and throw down their weapons.

I want to lift my chin mockingly at the enemy general and he has no choice but to charge me to defend his honor.

I want to deal with a swarm of creatures by bisecting the stone pillars of the ancient ruin and dropping it on them.

I want to hit a dude so hard his allies are demoralized.

I want to break a calvary charge by punching the lead horse in the face.

I want to suplex a triceratops by the horns.

I want to charge in faster than the eye can track, show up behind my enemy and then all his blood explode out of him from all the stabbing I did in the intervening moment.

I want to captain America my shield around a corner and break someone's face.

I want to hardcore parkour my way around the enemy while filling them with poison daggers.

I want to become the sadness of anyone who even thinks of rocking up on my friends and trying to attack them while I draw breath.

I want to just show basic competence in combat tactics more than once per encounter (Looking at you, poor Battlemaster design).

 

[DND_Reborn]

Actually, that's another point I could make. People forget D&D 5e is not a pure fantasy TTRPG. It's a dungeon-crawl JRPG.

I would argue more D&D 5E is what you want to make of it.

The issue is, and I can understand this point, even if I don't feel it myself, is that for the people who want the high fantasy "super hero" equivalent for their martial PC, the game as is really doesn't support that.

High-level D&D basically means high-level magic. But it's magic all players can really interact with. The fantasy of high-level D&D is magic being flung everywhere. If your character isn't inherently magical, they'll have some magic items in their toolbelt as well.

Exactly. For casters, that means spells and magic items. For martials, that means getting 6+ attacks in a turn, sustaining 100's of points of damage, or other mundane (but colossal!) things. And yes, those martials get the magic items as well.

It's all subjective. With anything subjective, it's a matter of taste.

True. Very true.

And to better support the super hero tastes that some players and DMs have, it would be nice if WotC published a book that modified, augmented, or out-right replaced higher level martial features with more mystical/ magical super hero-like features. It wouldn't be anything I would be interested in, but I am for supporting people being able to enjoy the play style they want.

 

[Minigiant]

True enough. Since I happen to be one of those people, there isn't much I can contribute for people who want it.

I want magic to be magical and mundane to be mundane (even if awesomely heroic!).

The issue are the word mundane and the interactions with and use of magic.

Mundane has 2 definitions.
One is ordinary
The other worldly.

The issue is in D&D, a nonmagical character if they level up enough will eventually not be ordinary and be able to do thing not seen on this world.

There are no level 15 fighters on Earth. So at a point you have to imagine said character doing a lot more things itself lower level self couldn't. And D&D isn't were imaginative with this without using magic.

For example, I never got how a D&D fighter can't parry a spell. Even if you deem they need a magic weapon, even the basic cartoonn I watched as a kid had warrior types of even low-mid levels blocking, parrying, and batting away spells directed to them. "Nuh uh I blocked your XYZ" was a basic response in little kid make believe hero fights. Yet the D&D fighters take spells to the chin and can't slice through magic walls in one blow.

 

[FrozenNorth]

We had a fighter (champion)/ rogue (assassin) who was a beast in combat, and our sorcerer (draconic bloodline) / druid (moon) who kicked butt with some key spells and wildshaping. My own cleric (knowledge)/ rogue (scout) /wizard (war magic) certainly got her moments in the spot-light as well and even the barbarian (totem) / fighter (cavalier) often did his part to vanquish our enemies and save the day!

Were the martials doing "super hero" type stuff? Sure, in their way! When the fighter/rogue got a critical hit after sneaking up on a hill giant and killing it in a single blow (well over 20 dice, plus bonuses, and he did roll pretty well...), that seemed pretty awesome to everyone at the table! I know my PC couldn't have done anything do to that. Sure, he got lucky with the crit and the dice rolls, but again, there is nothing, nothing, I could have done to kill a hill giant in a single round.

Are you sure that your character couldn’t do anything like this? If the fighter/rogue is rolling 20 dice on a crit, you’re pretty high level. Let’s say level 8 (for the heck of it).

As a wizard, you cast Hypnotic pattern. Hill giants have a -1 Wis, and no Wis proficiency. You can probably also hit 2 (if not 3) giants with the spell. Unless they rolled a 17 or higher, the giants are incapacitated. Depending on how many giants there were, you just ended the combat, without needing a crit.

You can also do this 6 tomes before you need to start using 2nd or 1st level spells, like a pleb.

 

[Garthanos]

Lol, of course I get the point!

I don't think you do as you think "its magic" is a good explanation

Except that Wizards are required to explain things

Nope they don't have to explain it, not at all you accept virtually anything including people suddenly swapping out 1 large set of implausibly disimilar abilities for another large set of implausibly disimilar abilities, probably because there is no real limits to compare them too

, they have a magical supernatural power source called "Arcane magic" that enables them to do things.

Martial characters !== Mundane Characters, is what many here have been trying to point out.

My favorite edition said martial explicitly is "a power source" like arcane/primal/divine/psionic each having their own style and limits and advantages, it was defined as "not traditional magic" and that its practitioners perform feats and stunts beyond what ordinary mortals can hope to accomplish...

Personally I consider all of martial to use the same thing monks identify as chi... ie a non-traditional power source which most martial types do not see as magic, some call digging down deep or heroic exertion (same stuff different paint as chi)

I mean "Martial" Artist -> Monk.