D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

[DND_Reborn]

Nope, I don't see you as a blocker at all but you also don't really seem to feel this gap as accutely as many folks as you mentioned above. So you are also not the same kind of supporter if that makes sense.

The mythic hero folks don't seem to be advocating for this design to be the only base but rather that is is part of the base line options so that it gets the same kind of design attention and actually turns out well.

So perhaps your branches of advancement would satisfy many folks. But it's a real design challenge if classes from each of those paths could adventure together. But it would be a great modular system if done well!

The Superheroic Martials with Heroic Wizards campaign could be a fun change of pace!

Sure, makes perfect sense. No, I don't think more powerful superhero features are needed for martials to make them fun to play alongside archmages, etc., but I have no issue if others want it.

Hopefully anything WotC publishes should get the proper attention and turn out well for that audience. For instance, a lot of people like Tasha's. Frankly, it isn't my thing. I like the idea of sidekick classes and a few other things, but for the people who wanted it I think it works well.

As far as the idea of three branches of advancement, I think it would be possible and characters could adventure together. It would be sort of like the hobbits (mundane), Strider, Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir (heroes), and Gandalf (superhero?) as the PCs maybe?

I guess for me if I want to play superheroes, I just play superhero PRGs, but I get how this is the answer for everyone. Despite the power of high level spells in D&D, I don't see the gap as wide as others do.

 

[Garthanos]

Err, Circé could True Polymorph without poisoning according to Ovid: when she turns Scylla into a monstrous beast, she pours the material components on the floor of Scylla's house when she isn't there

Potion Poison potato potato.
Seems just like the poisoning to me, this is setting a trap in advance ie deception (consider that a theme for her you wont be wrong) to create a trap they walk into and get the poison (touching or consuming) on them. Just like Odysseus's men. This required materia and preparation are where you get mana from is a feature of greek myth.

For me. Knows one ritual is not at all evidence of D&D caliber caster. A ritual to create one kind of poison and deception to deliver it, is really the extent of it. An average apothecary can kill somebody but it takes a god to transform. (not too impressive to me or actually impressive but not like waves hands and poof you are a pig or poof my friend or I am a bloody T-Rex all in one spell and that is just one of many many in my arsenal including sleep spells and webs and various others to trap everyone in a good sized area and so on and so forth.)


A scene where they mention touching someone to me is just delivering more of the agent probably also done with deception (little old me I am not dangerous smears poison on both guards not a trick to do against 22 you are right), not evidence the same method was used nor that the other cases were at all something the character could do on the fly. The guardsmen probably only needed a temporary effect though what level is that Polymorph 4th level, at least practically and would be appropriate for justice sake they were doing their jobs guarding their lord. (of course if she was showing classic divine wrath maybe just one contact poison slightly more doses need)

Everyone in their audience probably knew that prepared potion/poison using gathered alchemic substances was how magic worked. . It's unlikely without preparation she could do anything much at all.

Do they ever describe her turning into a useful beast to fly somewhere? or carry others on her back as a gigantic beast or god forbid doing any other effect at all (besides punishes enemies with a poison)? I mean any stories of teleporting or anything to really say this is more than a single ability?

The Celtic Tuathan Sorcerors are the source of closest to D&D casters I have seen.

 

[Garthanos]

As far as the idea of three branches of advancement, I think it would be possible and characters could adventure together. It would be sort of like the hobbits (mundane), Strider, Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir (heroes), and Gandalf (superhero?) as the PCs maybe?

I guess for me if I want to play superheroes, I just play superhero PRGs,

I think playing Cu Cuhlain or One of the Aesir or a Tuatha in a modern setting might be Jarring instead of playing them in a high fantasy setting although Thor manages... But he kind of has one major story and that is "Stranger in a Strange Land"

Playing not the wizards sidekick or whatever like the group mentioned as Fighters in 2e PHB should bloody not be considered the end of D&D but it has been treated that way, by apologists who wanted the top taken off casters while a severe top one was placed on martial types and sure enough they got it.

Battlemaster maneuvers. .. yup everyones potency designed appropriate to level 3. And those with a silly restricted frequency (as mentioned earlier)

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Do they ever describe her turning into a useful beast to fly somewhere? or carry others on her back as a gigantic beast or god forbid doing any other effect at all (besides punishes enemies with a poison)? I mean any stories of teleporting or anything to really say this is more than a single ability?

To curse Scylla's house she left her palace and reached the Italian shore on the same day "by walking freely over the waves" and arrived despite not knowing Scylla in the first place (some kind of divination?). Maybe not teleportation, but ultrafast travel option ignoring terrain (Ovid, Metamorphosis). In the same work, she is also commanding beasts, commanding the sun to hide (region-wide darkness spell, useful against an army, so it's much more than the 2nd level Darkness spell), she moved a forest (OK, I grant that this has little adventuring value...), cast mass fear (or maybe hunger of hadar, Ovid is too poetic to include useful information like DC and damage dice) and she... dismissed the Furies going afte Medea for the murder of her brother (depending on how you want to see this, it could be a Persuasion skill check against Jupiter in his function of kepeper of social order, or a banishment of extraplanar creatures. She was sought after for this ritual, so obviously her niece thought she could actually do something).

It's not really a central character but she seems to be more than a one-trick pony from her few appearances in this story.

 

[Garthanos]

To curse Scylla's house she left her palace and reached the Italian shore on the same day "by walking freely over the waves". Maybe not teleportation, but ultrafast travel option ignoring terrain (Ovid, Metamorphosis).

That works, I am the kind who would allow someone to use a cantrip to allow one to walk across lakes and things. Though I have grown fond of there being secret ways with guardians or simply wicked puzzles with whom one can establish relationships or solve or make simple payments to short cut fast travel without casting a spell.

In the same work, she is also commanding beasts, commanding the sun to hide (region-wide darkness spell, useful against an army?),

Nods or could be convincing apollo to alter his chariots path if you want to go with influencing divine entities.

she moved a forest (OK, I grant that this has little adventuring value...)

not much more than changing the course of a river to accomplish some desired effect but easily could create army sized difficult terrain and or obscuration so you cannot tell where said army travelled (also possibly doable with a river) , in Tolkien's story line that would be a Treant power.

and she... dismissed the Furies going afte Medea for the murder of her brother (depending on how you want to see this, it could be a Persuasion skill check against Jupiter or a banishment of extraplanar creature.

Wait Jupiter? oh Romanization.

She was sought after for this ritual, so obviously her niece thought she could actually do something.

It's not really a central character but she seems to be more than a one-trick pony.

Cool thanks I like hearing tid bits.

 

[Garthanos]

You clearly don't dungeon crawl the way I do at high level. Building a wall - trap people in. Cutting a mountain = making your own doors. And cutting and smashing your way through a maze is a perfectly good way of getting through.

This... to be honest it gets down to their casters are solving all those problems for them so they do not even have to consider what a badass legendary martial might do.

Or more like they know we arent really enabled to play that anymore, without house ruling the blazes out of the game so why consider it?

 

[Asisreo]

Honestly, if you want a mythic martial, I don't think the fighter is even the right class. Their structure doesn't support it.

The monk would be a better fit. Now, I'm not saying the monk is the fantasy martial you all want, but the chassis of it can be most easily modified for your purposes.

The class of monk is a utility-heavy martial and probably the most complex of them all. They have a point-system that replenishes on short rest and a plethora of features that can be easily replaced without breaking anything.

For one: Get rid of Martial Arts and give them Martial Weapon & Armor Proficiency. As well as a Fighting Style.

Change Ki into Heroic Points (borrowed from the pre-existing system).

Flurry of Blows become Power Strike and adds a scaling damage bonus to your attacks once per turn. Possibly using the pre-existing Monk Die.

Patient Defense becomes sidestep and uses a reaction to reduce the damage of an attack taken by half.

Step of the Wind becomes Power Leap and lets the fighter jump x3 the height.

Unarmored Movement becomes Reposition and you can use your Bonus Action to shove a creature up to 10ft without an ability check. At level 9, it goes to 30ft.

Deflect Missiles turn to Counter and you can use your reaction and a heroic point to reduce the damage of a melee attack by 1d10+STR+Level and immediately take a melee attack.

Slow Fall becomes Powerlift. Your lift, carry, and drag weights are multiplied by your proficiency modifier.

Stunning Strike becomes Harrowing Strike. For 2 heroic points, The next attack roll made against the target has advantage and the next saving throw it makes has disadvantage.

Ki-empowered Strike remains mechanically the same, but gets called Mythic Strikes (and works with martial weapons).

Evasion becomes Warrior's Cunning and gives the Martial a bonus to saving throws equal to their intelligence modifier.

Stillness of Mind becomes Escape Artist and grants advantage on checks made to escape a grapple.

Purity of Body becomes Empowerment. For 1 Heroic Point, you have advantage on an ability check of your choice for one hour.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon becomes Mythical Might and you add your proficiency bonus to any ability check made to break an object.

Diamond Soul becomes Legendary Resistance. You have advantage on all saving throws and you can expend 6 Heroic Points to turn a failure into a success.

Timeless Body becomes Use Magic Device.

Empty Body becomes Destined Warrior. You can use an action and expend 4 Heroic Points to replenish 1 HP every round for 1 minute (60 HP total). You can also move through any obstacle through sheer force, except for a Prismatic Wall, for 1 minute.

That's at least a start.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Honestly, if you want a mythic martial, I don't think the fighter is even the right class. Their structure doesn't support it.

The monk would be a better fit. Now, I'm not saying the monk is the fantasy martial you all want, but the chassis of it can be most easily modified for your purposes.

The class of monk is a utility-heavy martial and probably the most complex of them all. They have a point-system that replenishes on short rest and a plethora of features that can be easily replaced without breaking anything.

For one: Get rid of Martial Arts and give them Martial Weapon & Armor Proficiency. As well as a Fighting Style.

Change Ki into Heroic Points (borrowed from the pre-existing system).

Flurry of Blows become Power Strike and adds a scaling damage bonus to your attacks once per turn. Possibly using the pre-existing Monk Die.

Patient Defense becomes sidestep and uses a reaction to reduce the damage of an attack taken by half.

Step of the Wind becomes Power Leap and lets the fighter jump x3 the height.

....(snip)

That's at least a start.

This is a really cool concept (and a great start! ) and I've been waiting for someone to show how making a superheroic martial could be done. But, honestly, from the things a lot of posters have commented on, I don't think it even comes close to reach the "power level" to match the power of high level spells, etc.

To "up the ante" so to speak, something like Step of the Wind becomes Mighty Leap (or whatever):

Mighty Leap
Blah blah blah, and your jump distances are increased by a multiple equal to your proficiency bonus. This increase of distance does not cost you any speed.

Ex. When you first get it, if you have STR 12, you could long jump 36 feet and high jump 12 feet (already better than records IRL); and by tier 4 you could long jump 84 feet and high jump 28 feet.

Combine that with something like a DM allowing a Strength (Athletics) to add your level to the jump or even the result of the check, and your tier 4 PC could long jump over 100 feet.

But really, even that might not be as powerful in fashion that some people want...

 

[HammerMan]

I don't have to had worked at Hasbro or WoTC to know a small team and a large team has different benefits and setbacks, especially time-related.

no but if you don't then you are just guessing how any of it worked

There was quite some new, big ideas introduced to 5e.

yes and that matters 0 to the fact that this is not a board meeting, you have 0 knowledge of internal discussions, and you are making thing up on the internet.

They outsource. In the PHB, they mention 175,000 fans playtested the game (during the D&DNext era)Era. I also remember somewhere a list of official playtesters WoTC takes into consideration.

and we all filled out those surveys and know what they did and didn't ask... we also know that (like every non 4e version) 5 breaks down at high level and they have stated this is becuse they DONT have as much data on high level...

I don't know the policy for posting playtest material in this forum (especially because I don't know if its public), but if you dig deep enough for the August 13 playtest packet, you'll see the spells have been mentioned to be tweaked, as well as mentions of the beta-version of the Concentration mechanic, which was unique to Wizards.

and again we all playtested, we all answered the surveys...

I understand you're passionate about the subject but these threads always die the same way: A boiling pit of people thinking WoTC is incompetent yet not coming up with any actionable resolution.

I HAVE come up with actionable ideas. (Make a new more complex class in a secondary book) I even came up with how to do it without much extra work (use the same basic effects as the spell casters with refluffing and minor tweeks... if it doesn't break the game for earth quake to be X level then an earthquake stomp can be at X level)

YOU ARE THE ONE CHANGING AND ARGUEING IN THREAD!!!!

 

[HammerMan]

The Superheroic Martials with Heroic Wizards campaign could be a fun change of pace!

Before we walked away from D&D back in 3e, we were banning all the full casters from the PHB, useing the Bo9S as our main martial classes (with dips in rouge or fighter) and using the later speclity wizards (warmage, warlock, beguiler, true necromancer) and a few other PHBII classes (Knight, DUsk Blade) and it worked okay for a bit...but too much of the system was broken and when we wanted to play a druid we would fall face first into CODzilla issues.

If 4e had not promised a more balanced and fair game my large group would have never played D&D again.