D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

[Garthanos]

yeah I love that concept... I honestly believe that no 1 answer should be fit for any class. we should have daily/encounter/at will/ prof times perday/ resources spends all but we should flavor and reflavor the explanation to fit... "I'm too tired" "I only preped one" "I don't have the mana"

Even this spell can be quickly re-studied from the book but that one requires a rested brain (the difference in 4e default flavor text between encounter wizards magic and daily), yes 4e used Vancian flavor (unless you changed the flavor)

The number of reasons an encounter limited effect might occur is pretty big, some caster types might need rituals to purify after a casting of a nastier magic.

A druid might require a different locale due to spent environal energy (or actually there own personal relationship with that environment is strained)

 

[Garthanos]

a great start, move around some profs and give that d12 HD and it could almost keep up with a weak caster...

LOL

 

[Garthanos]

Before we walked away from D&D back in 3e, we were banning all the full casters from the PHB, useing the Bo9S as our main martial classes (with dips in rouge or fighter) and using the later speclity wizards (warmage, warlock, beguiler, true necromancer) and a few other PHBII classes (Knight, DUsk Blade) and it worked okay for a bit...but too much of the system was broken and when we wanted to play a druid we would fall face first into CODzilla issues.

If 4e had not promised a more balanced and fair game my large group would have never played D&D again.

This... I would have never picked D&D up or taught it to my kids.

 

[Garthanos]

This is a really cool concept (and a great start! ) and I've been waiting for someone to show how making a superheroic martial could be done. But, honestly, from the things a lot of posters have commented on, I don't think it even comes close to reach the "power level" to match the power of high level spells, etc.

To "up the ante" so to speak, something like Step of the Wind becomes Mighty Leap (or whatever):



Ex. When you first get it, if you have STR 12, you could long jump 36 feet and high jump 12 feet (already better than records IRL); and by tier 4 you could long jump 84 feet and high jump 28 feet.

Combine that with something like a DM allowing a Strength (Athletics) to add your level to the jump or even the result of the check, and your tier 4 PC could long jump over 100 feet.

I would look at the start provided by Level Up and apply your same thinking... might not have to move as far but might go ahead with the bold numbers (*they are much more subtle).

Level Up rather has all martial classes with exertions and ways to meditate or exercise to convert HD into exertion points and similar things. They also did some subtle feeling balance adjustments. And a lot of feature selectable character customization.

 

[Asisreo]

Before doing a direct derivation one might get the monk classes numbers so they scale better in endgame a fairly known issue. A recent Treantmonk video makes a fairly complete and elaborated breakdown of why and how the monks math fails and makes it start out behind the curve and flattens badly after 11th level). TLDV It starts out behind the curve of other martial types for one thing because its main features are all catch me ups then bottoms out further with bad advancements after 11 (the subclass Way of Mercy might have hints as ways to fix the core at least later)

DPR and Defense isn't really the Monk's Schtick, so math won't tell you where their value lies: Positioning themselves in disruptive positions and inflicting debuffs/conditions on the enemy.

A monk wants to be next to the Mage and/or the ranged-focused character. That way they have to disengage/cast a leveled spell or take a potential Stun out-of-turn.

Anyways, not a monk thread. This class is meant to coexist with the fighter and rogue so I'm cautious of letting it outdamage them since that would mean this class outcompetes them in everything. These heroes fulfill a fantasy but the fighter still needs his own niche.

Really, this class would barely outdamage monk. If you don't like resource management and action economy, you may still find it challenging to work with.

 

[Garthanos]

DPR and Defense isn't really the Monk's Schtick,

A melee class and the monk is one... who cannot defend themselves nor deliver a payload is not a schtick. (its not a glass cannon, it's glass cracker)

5e makes positioning much less meaningful (intentionally) than any previous edition if you run very fast with poor ac you get hit by most attacks which target ac and trigger more opportunity attacks.

There are massively beneficial feats for the weapon using types that remains so (monk magic items also look paltry - thank you for a tattoo tasha).

Control features are accounted for in optimization considerations
and monsters have a lot of good CON saves (making stun much harder to deliver that it looks 3 attacks and 3 points and 1 stun, 2 retaliations against your defenses with a fair chance of being hit)
Generally control is indeed accounted for when it is pointed out casters overwhelm others (not so much dpr). I can stun one guy (while staying next to him) vs I can web from a distance (both slowing even if they succeed and restraining and messing with the vision to even target the caster et all) the entire team of melee enemies, which are rather common in 5e (while the ranged pick them off) .

As for DPR, I personally would prefer its control even vaguely approach the worst caster options. That said there are other people visualizing the legendary guy who splits the ground out from underneath his enemies also creating control AND delivering some decent damage too.

For the monk I picture an ability that allowed one to pull disabling (perhaps slowing and restraining) pressure point attacks as one ran past enemies on the field (the caster gets his disable everyone without triggering opportunity attacks again monk needs defenses he will use them to pull this off)

That battlemaster (aka archer) is not going to be exceeded in his forte if the monk can even touch his melee worst. (it is not anywhere near close)

And sure newbies may waste chi on wall walking or some such... so why does it cost (the rogue doing a disengage is getting massive mobility and situational defense free)

I guess the major issue is end game but since that is where casters are so heavily dominant picking the class who fades out badly compared even to other martials as ones model might be a problem in a discussion about making it so martial types do not do that.

 

[Asisreo]

A melee class and the monk is one... who cannot defend themselves nor deliver a payload is not a schtick. (its not a glass cannon, it's glass cracker)

I'm not going to turn this thread into a monk thread, but a monk player has to be keenly aware of all their features and resources to work well.

5e makes positioning much less meaningful (intentionally) than any previous edition if you run very fast with poor ac you get hit by most attacks which target ac and trigger more opportunity attacks.

There are ways to mitigate Opportunity Attacks. The most basic (and probably worst) is to BA disengage. A common one is to BA dodge to make you tankier for the entire round.

But subclasses give abilities that help. The Open monk can simply remove the target's ability to make a reaction. The shadow monk can cast Darkness. The Elemonk can either use Fire Snakes to never be in melee or WW/Broken Air to prone them from a distance.

There are massively beneficial feats for the weapon using types that remains so (monk magic items also look paltry - thank you for a tattoo tasha).

Feats are broken.

Control features are accounted for in optimization considerations
and monsters have a lot of good CON saves (making stun much harder to deliver that it looks 3 attacks and 3 points and 1 stun, 2 retaliations against your defenses with a fair chance of being hit)
Generally control is indeed accounted for when it is pointed out casters overwhelm others (not so much dpr). I can stun one guy (while staying next to him) vs I can web from a distance (both slowing even if they succeed and restraining and messing with the vision to even target the caster et all) the entire team of melee enemies, which are rather common in 5e (while the ranged pick them off) .

The subclass choices are Control choices. You don't get handed control features other than Stunning Strike from the base chassis. Like I said, OHmonks can inflict prone by targeting dex, giving advantage on other melee attackers. There's other sources of control outside of stunning Strike on a monk's kit.

SS is quite powerful, though.

In general, Monks aren't tanky against attacks, but they do well against effects.

In fact, Monks tradeoff direct damage and defense with 2 things melee martials in 5e usually lack: Adaptability.

A melee Fighter faces a ranged attacker, and they just kinda take the hits at face value. Monks can reduce the damage and reflect them back.

A fighter faces a creature that frightens its targets, the fighter just has to wait until they save, a monk can cure themselves.

 

[Garthanos]

Really, this class would barely outdamage monk.

Seems like it could have better some damage via support from feats, no?

 

[Neonchameleon]

There was quite some new, big ideas introduced to 5e. For one: bounded accuracy. It was a massive gamble having Player's numbers go up by only +1 or +2 after roughly 4 levels. It is one of 5e's most praised mechanics by its simplicity and elegance, but it's still a bit awkward for old-schoolers.

This was only "new" to people who'd been playing for less than a decade and a half when it was launched. If you played AD&D the player's numbers for non weapon proficiencies barely went up at all. Meanwhile in 4e everything went up by +1/2 level - meaning that it all cancelled out in many ways so you had a similar impact. Bounded accuracy is one of the biggest cases I've ever seen of putting a fresh coat of paint over a couple of old ideas (almost every fantasy heartbreaker ever reduced the impact of level scaling).

I suppose that 3.X fans these days count as "old schoolers"

There's also Advantage/Disadvantage being the only form of bonuses beyond rare numerical benefits. It makes it much easier to adjudicate as a DM and it's easy for players to grasp but it doesn't leave much granularity and it tends to lead to nonsensical arbitrations.

That I think was actually fairly new and is, as you mention, double edged.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm not going to turn this thread into a monk thread

We can try to ignore most of that element makes it difficult to discuss using the structure

Feats are broken.

and basically several of the most potent are basically hand picked presents designed for martial types other than the monk. And those martials get more of them too.