D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

[HammerMan]

I've been waiting for someone to show how making a superheroic martial could be done.

takw the warlock frame work... make 6-10 at will special exploits that are meant to be spammed (like cantrips they only know like 2-3) I would avoid the 'one is best' that EB is, but even that woudn't be unheard of. Give them a list of abilities to choose from at levels 1-11 that have scaleing by level. They can only pick a few to know, and they can only use 2 per short rest until 11th when they can use 3 and 17th they get 4. build a series of mini feats that either modifier or give a new ability 1/day or 1/sr (like invocations) then give them a few daily powers each 1/day at 11+ (like the arcanas) make 1/2-2/3 purely natural abilites and 1/2-2/3 of what is left super human or super natural, with the final bit being little more then spells by a diffrent name... let each of these "Warblades" choose how magi they are... all before subclass

take the 2 tier subclass 1 at 1st level 1 at 3rd level, the 1st level one is very mundain (like PHB fighters) but the 3rd really specializes.

 

[DND_Reborn]

if it doesn't break the game for earth quake to be X level then an earthquake stomp can be at X level)

As long as the uses of Earthquiake Stomp" is limited (in a manner akin to spell slots, as I *think you are suggesting???), then sure.

But for myself, that is a part that bothers me (not just about this, but a lot of similar things in 5E), when you have "things you can do" that are limited arbitrarily. I understand balance is a key factor, but otherwise it is hard for me to see a narrative sense as to some of the limitations.

I prime example is the Battle Master. You learn these maneuvers, such as Riposte or Parry, but you can only do them a number of times equal to your superiority dice and then, suddenly, you can't do them anymore?

 

[DND_Reborn]

takw the warlock frame work... make 6-10 at will special exploits that are meant to be spammed (like cantrips) I would avoid the 'one is best' that EB is, but even that woudn't be unheard of. Give them a list of abilities to choose from at levels 1-11 that have scaleing by level. They can only pick a few to know, and they can only use 2 per short rest until 11th when they can use 3 and 17th they get 4. build a series of mini feats that either modifier or give a new ability 1/day or 1/sr (like invocations) then give them a few daily powers each 1/day at 11+ (like the arcanas) make 1/2-2/3 purely natural abilites and 1/2-2/3 of what is left super human or super natural, with the final bit being little more then spells by a diffrent name... let each of these "Warblades" choose how magi they are... all before subclass

take the 2 tier subclass 1 at 1st level 1 at 3rd level, the 1st level one is very mundain (like PHB fighters) but the 3rd really specializes.

That is all well and good, but what I applauded @Asisreo for was actually making a build. Hopefully I think we all know it can be done...

 

[HammerMan]

Honestly, if you want a mythic martial, I don't think the fighter is even the right class. Their structure doesn't support it.

yeah, Fighter and ROgue are not built to keep up with casters.

he monk would be a better fit. Now, I'm not saying the monk is the fantasy martial you all want, but the chassis of it can be most easily modified for your purposes.

I'm sorry in a thread complaining about fighter and rouge are you suggesting monk is BETTER?

The class of monk is a utility-heavy martial and probably the most complex of them all. They have a point-system that replenishes on short rest and a plethora of features that can be easily replaced without breaking anything.

yes but we want GOOD features.

For one: Get rid of Martial Arts and give them Martial Weapon & Armor Proficiency. As well as a Fighting Style.

okay I like where this is going

Change Ki into Heroic Points (borrowed from the pre-existing system).

Flurry of Blows become Power Strike and adds a scaling damage bonus to your attacks once per turn. Possibly using the pre-existing Monk Die.

I really like this

Patient Defense becomes sidestep and uses a reaction to reduce the damage of an attack taken by half.

love it

Step of the Wind becomes Power Leap and lets the fighter jump x3 the height.

I don't remember if this cost ki (Heroic points) but I think making it Profxday and be concentration could work

Unarmored Movement becomes Reposition and you can use your Bonus Action to shove a creature up to 10ft without an ability check. At level 9, it goes to 30ft...

I am meh on this one

Deflect Missiles turn to Counter and you can use your reaction and a heroic point to reduce the damage of a melee attack by 1d10+STR+Level and immediately take a melee attack.

love it

Slow Fall becomes Powerlift. Your lift, carry, and drag weights are multiplied by your proficiency modifier.

love it

Stunning Strike becomes Harrowing Strike. For 2 heroic points, The next attack roll made against the target has advantage and the next saving throw it makes has disadvantage.

not sure we need to change the best things monks get, but not bad

Ki-empowered Strike remains mechanically the same, but gets called Mythic Strikes (and works with martial weapons).

good

Evasion becomes Warrior's Cunning and gives the Martial a bonus to saving throws equal to their intelligence modifier.

love it

Stillness of Mind becomes Escape Artist and grants advantage on checks made to escape a grapple.

maybe more like a freedom of movement spell... but like where you are going mostly

Purity of Body becomes Empowerment. For 1 Heroic Point, you have advantage on an ability check of your choice for one hour.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon becomes Mythical Might and you add your proficiency bonus to any ability check made to break an object.

Diamond Soul becomes Legendary Resistance. You have advantage on all saving throws and you can expend 6 Heroic Points to turn a failure into a success.

I think costing 6 is a bit much at the end but for sure a great set of fixes

Timeless Body becomes Use Magic Device.

not sure I like this one at all

Empty Body becomes Destined Warrior. You can use an action and expend 4 Heroic Points to replenish 1 HP every round for 1 minute (60 HP total). You can also move through any obstacle through sheer force, except for a Prismatic Wall, for 1 minute.

That's at least a start.

a great start, move around some profs and give that d12 HD and it could almost keep up with a weak caster...

 

[HammerMan]

As long as the uses of Earthquiake Stomp" is limited (in a manner akin to spell slots, as I *think you are suggesting???), then sure.

yeah it would not be at will

But for myself, that is a part that bothers me (not just about this, but a lot of similar things in 5E), when you have "things you can do" that are limited arbitrarily. I understand balance is a key factor, but otherwise it is hard for me to see a narrative sense as to some of the limitations.

"You strain your muscles and training to do X but you can't do it again until Y"

I prime example is the Battle Master. You learn these maneuvers, such as Riposte or Parry, but you can only do them a number of times equal to your superiority dice and then, suddenly, you can't do them anymore?

 

[Garthanos]

Honestly, if you want a mythic martial, I don't think the fighter is even the right class. Their structure doesn't support it.

It would be ironic to start with a class known for poor math in the last two tiers.
(called the new player trap amongst optimizer groups)

Before doing a direct derivation one might get the monk classes numbers so they scale better in endgame a fairly known issue. A recent Treantmonk video makes a fairly complete and elaborated breakdown of why and how the monks math fails and makes it start out behind the curve and flattens badly after 11th level). TLDV It starts out behind the curve of other martial types for one thing because its main features are all catch me ups then bottoms out further with bad advancements after 11 (the subclass Way of Mercy might have hints as ways to fix the core at least later)

However the concept/structure may indeed be better you might have noted I mentioned earlier about Chi being another word for the digging deep that other classic fictional heroic martial types exploit.

Considering them different is actually a kind of cultural faux pas these days and level up collapses the two together using an exertion mechanic for all martial types (while still mentioning chi in class flavor text for the monk)

 

[Garthanos]

yeah it would not be at will

"You strain your muscles and training to do X but you can't do it again until Y"

Strain is one flavor (works for the stomp) but also a trick which cannot be repeated efficiently against the same group of enemies aka the fool me once paradigm

 

[HammerMan]

However the concept/structure may indeed be better you might have noted I mentioned earlier about Chi being another word for the digging deep that other classic heroic martial types exploit.

INtresting note. In Hawwian folk lore Mana is a martial ability not unlike moreeastern ki or chi...

The meaning of the Hawaiian word "mana" means power, effectiveness and prestige. Hawaiian warriors for sure possesses the spirit of mana! Especially if the Spirit of the Lord who is THE POWER, THE EFFECTIVE ONE, and THE PRESTIGIOUS ONE lives in them!

so a fighter subclass could have man and still work...

 

[Garthanos]

INtresting note. In Hawwian folk lore Mana is a martial ability not unlike moreeastern ki or chi...

Cool.

 

[HammerMan]

Strain is one flavor but also a trick which cannot be repeated efficiently against the same group of enemies aka the fool me once paradigm

yeah I love that concept... I honestly believe that no 1 answer should be fit for any class. we should have daily/encounter/at will/ prof times perday/ resources spends all but we should flavor and reflavor the explanation to fit... "I'm too tired" "I only preped one" "I don't have the mana"