D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 2 - The Mundane Limit

Stalker0

Legend
Would something like a boon awarded when casters get certain spell levels work?

At most, maybe 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th? But that might be too much, LOL! :D
You could make any progression you like, and could even make it where different martial class get different numbers of boons and at different times.

I was just rereading a lot of the boons, and frankly a lot of them are exactly in line with ability ideas we discussed earlier. But probably the biggest benefit, it lets the player and DM tailor their level of mythicness. There are epic boons that are awesome but still fairly mundane, and their are boons that are completely supernatural, and its completely up to the player and dm where they want to go with it.

The more I consider this idea, the more I think its a really great way to go about it.
 

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DND_Reborn

Legend
The more I consider this idea, the more I think its a really great way to go about it.
Yep. On the surface, anyway, it is a pretty simple solution to the people who want more power for martial PCs.

Now, check out my new thread for a different concept, which might or might not help, depending on your point of view. ;)

 

The only issue with boons is that, like the Fighter and Rogues extra ASIs, they somewhat feel like they are way of the designers throwing up their hands and declaring that actual class features are too hard.

(Also what counts as a Martial in 5e? Is it only Fighters and Rogues, and maybe Barbarians, or can Rangers join the party too?)
 
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Vaalingrade

Legend
The only issue with boons is that, like the Fighter and Rogues extra ASIs, they somewhat feel like they are way of the designers throwing up their hands and declaring that actualy class features are too hard.

(Also what counts as a Martial in 5e? Is it only Fighters and Rogues, and maybe Barbarians, or can Rangers join the party too?)
Rangers can join once they decide what they are.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
declaring that actualy class features are too hard.
Or to specific? By allowing a choice of boons, for example, instead of set features, you are allowing more diversity.

(Also what counts as a Martial in 5e? Is it only Fighters and Rogues, and maybe Barbarians, or can Rangers join the party too?)
I think for many people it is anything not a full caster. So:
  • Barbarians
  • Fighters
  • Monks
  • Paladins
  • Rangers
  • Rogues
But of course I could be wrong. ;)
 


My vote is for a lot of very specific capabilities.

@Minigiant I like the direction you're thinking is going!

Finally before I head out, something I thought of the other day when it comes to WotC and the apparent focus of D&D:

View attachment 149006
Each of these highlighted sections focuses on spellcasters for the most part. Very little is commented on as to what other classes are capable of.

It's a pity, really, IMO.

Hadn't gone back to this since I got the PHB, but it is really interesting. The focus on spells (class abilities for some) as the benchmarks and the sometimes mention of other things external to class abilities that any class could do (form a guild, found clans) is pretty illuminating.

That said, it doesn't specifically exclude martials either! And the intent seems to be that "By 17th Level, characters have superheroic capabilities".
 

The only issue with boons is that, like the Fighter and Rogues extra ASIs, they somewhat feel like they are way of the designers throwing up their hands and declaring that actual class features are too hard.

(Also what counts as a Martial in 5e? Is it only Fighters and Rogues, and maybe Barbarians, or can Rangers join the party too?)

I sort of agree with this, but only because it was created as an add on system and probably didn't get the kind of love and playtesting as "core class abilities".

But there's no reason boons couldn't be turned into class abilities? And it is important that they are instead of hoping you get them (like magic items).
 


Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The only issue with boons is that, like the Fighter and Rogues extra ASIs, they somewhat feel like they are way of the designers throwing up their hands and declaring that actual class features are too hard

It is less that it was too hard and more that they were too squeamish to declare specifics of what a high level martial was because of past backlashes. And they ran out of time to feel in out in playtest.

(Also what counts as a Martial in 5e? Is it only Fighters and Rogues, and maybe Barbarians, or can Rangers join the party too?)
Typically any class that gets Extra Attack or Sneak Attack as a base class feature.

So Barbarians are Martial because the base class is all martial. Rangers and Paladins are half caster and half martial.

The Artificer isn't martial because neither half of it are Martial (spellcaster nor infusions)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This is a strange way to interpret the abilities of the creatures in D&D
What's strange about interpreting creature abilities as explicitly stated? The cockatrice ability is explicitly a magical ability. The basilisk gaze is explicitly supernatural. There's a reason for this and I've explained it to you multiple times now.
and seems like a bit of a catch-22. Are they magical/supernatural abilities because they do not exist in the real world or are they mundane abilities for those creatures because they are just things those creatures can do? Kinda seems like you can pick whichever side of the argument suits you.
They're magical/supernatural because the game sets forth through example and through RAI that these things are beyond normal as commonly understood in English(our world).
In either case though, again, all you've pointed to is an absence of evidence that mundane attacks can impact magical effects. The presence of a "dispelling strike" would be that evidence. It would not impact or contradict any of the current "dispell" interactions, it would just be one more.
This is a very weak attempt at justifying something that is obviously against RAI. It also does contradict every dispel interaction as all of them are magic on magic. A mundane "dispel magic" would contradict everything shown to us by current dispel abilities.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Supernatural and magic aren't necessarily the same.

And a mundane 'dispel would contradict what we 'know' now. It would be a great addition to the lore to make magic actually part of the world instead of some cheap veneer lightly applied to the world like so much vinyl wrap on a mini cooper.

It'd be nice to have the nature of the world be fantastic and acknowledge that there's fantastic stuff that effects magic, be it material, technique of meta physics.

For example:

Witchbane Woad
This paste of willow, wysteria and mandragora pulp can be applied to the body to provide a bonus to saves vs effects caused by arcane spells.

Meditation on the Hidden Ways
Each morning, one may spend an hour meditating with a tea of certain herbs and talismans. Doing so allows you to become aware of any magical effect within 10ft of you. As an action, you may focus on a square to discern what objects or creatures within that square is generating a magical effect. IF you are trained in Arcana, you can discern the nature of that magic as normal with the skill.

Sunderweave Technique
By combining the heightened awareness of the Meditation on Hidden Ways, the warrior can make an attack against a magical effect on a creature or object. Make an attack against the target. On a hit, treat this as dispel magic. If you can discern what effects are on the target, you may choose which to dispel. If you are not, you dispel an effect at random.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Seriously. I want my high level Martial to be able to match world record athletes while wearing their full gear (while not going beyond encumbrance limits). As it stands, only Barbarians have a chance to reach world record jumps and stuff, and that's because they can break the 20 cap on ability scores.
This can already be done. The strength = feet is only for jumping without a roll. Jumps so easy that you can just do them. You can by RAW exceed those limits with athletics skill.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Supernatural and magic aren't necessarily the same.

And a mundane 'dispel would contradict what we 'know' now. It would be a great addition to the lore to make magic actually part of the world instead of some cheap veneer lightly applied to the world like so much vinyl wrap on a mini cooper.
It already is a part of the world, and it supports what I'm saying.

"You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:

• the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures
• the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect

In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about."

Then it goes into a list of questions in order to determine if the magic is magic of the second type. The supernatural/magical martial class abilities would fall into the first type.

It'd be nice to have the nature of the world be fantastic and acknowledge that there's fantastic stuff that effects magic, be it material, technique of meta physics.

For example:

Witchbane Woad
This paste of willow, wysteria and mandragora pulp can be applied to the body to provide a bonus to saves vs effects caused by arcane spells.

Meditation on the Hidden Ways
Each morning, one may spend an hour meditating with a tea of certain herbs and talismans. Doing so allows you to become aware of any magical effect within 10ft of you. As an action, you may focus on a square to discern what objects or creatures within that square is generating a magical effect. IF you are trained in Arcana, you can discern the nature of that magic as normal with the skill.

Sunderweave Technique
By combining the heightened awareness of the Meditation on Hidden Ways, the warrior can make an attack against a magical effect on a creature or object. Make an attack against the target. On a hit, treat this as dispel magic. If you can discern what effects are on the target, you may choose which to dispel. If you are not, you dispel an effect at random.
These would also fall under the magic of the first type.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
'Magic of the first type' is not what we usually talk about when we talk about magic. That's 'being a fantasy world' and D&D rarely actually addresses it unless it's saying 'monsters don't disintegrate in an anti-magic field'.

D&D is seriously lacking in that department. So few weird animals and plants that aren't expressly some kind of magical critter. Let alone class features, equipment, etc.

So 'magic of the first type is what we need more of then. As in 'allowing the fantasy world to be fantastic', not 'magic'.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
'Magic of the first type' is not what we usually talk about when we talk about magic. That's 'being a fantasy world' and D&D rarely actually addresses it unless it's saying 'monsters don't disintegrate in an anti-magic field'.
Dragon breath, dragon flight and more are all examples of magic of the first type. Anything that is supernatural or magical(without saying magic ability) is magic of the first type.
So 'magic of the first type is what we need more of then. As in 'allowing the fantasy world to be fantastic', not 'magic'.
They'd still be supernatural/magical, just not the dispellable type.
 



Scribe

Hero
It already is a part of the world, and it supports what I'm saying.

"You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:

• the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures
• the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect

In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about."

Then it goes into a list of questions in order to determine if the magic is magic of the second type. The supernatural/magical martial class abilities would fall into the first type.


These would also fall under the magic of the first type.

I think this is really on point.

Secondly I think the issue is yes, Martial classes got a bit short changed, but they really screwed up just giving Wizards so much.

Spell lists need a major overhaul and limitations, and restrictions need to come back.
 

Undrave

Hero
This. In the PHB, Bards got a nifty exclusive spell that gives an opponent disadvantage on their first attack. In Xanathar’s, Wizards get the same thing with a spell that does more damage (but targets a higher save). In the PHB, one difference between Sorcerers and Wizards is that Sorcerers get access to the nifty 1-hour buff: Enhance Ability. Come Tasha’s, Wizards get it too. If I remember correctly, Xanathar and Tasha’s also gave Wizards access to radiant damage, something that used to be closed to them.
There is a total Wizard bias in the design of D&D. It's never okay for it to be just as good as other classes, it has to ALWAYS steal stuff from other casters and always edge out the mundanes...
 

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