Casting from a scroll

[Telperion]

I have an NPC who is running a store selling herbs and some legal drugs. That's the storefront anyhow. At the back there are three sections:

The first one is for spell components. They are all neatly labeled and placed in whatever containers are necessary.

The second one is for illegal drugs and poisons.

The third part is for a small selection of scrolls. Now here comes the difficult bit. According to DMG rules if a wizard has a particular spell on his spell list, and has a high enough ability score to cast it, there's only a small caster level check to stop him/her. I just realized that a 3rd level wizard could walk into a store, purchase (with party funds) a couple of 4th level spells and use them fairly certainly. The caster level check DC is only 8, so if the player doesn't roll between 1 - 4 on a d20 he succeeds at casting the higher level spell.

So what's stopping an enterprising wizard from walking out of such a store with a couple of Ice Storm scrolls tucked in his scroll-case? He will most likely succeed at using those spells when the time comes, and even if he failes the chances of an actual mishap are fairly low (DC 5, so failure results on a roll of 1 - 4, if the wizard has no Wisdom modifier).

Using this system a wizard could start collecting spells that are several levels above him, and still run a fairly small risk of ever harming himself. This seems rather broken to me, but then again I suppose I just don't like my players to have access to Disintegrate at level 3, and have a fairly good chance of casting the spell. (caster level check DC 12)

 

[Telperion]

O', and I did have a question as well:

What happens to a spell scroll if the casting fails? Does the spell contained in the scroll disappear, as it does when the spell is cast successfully, or can you keep trying until you succeed?

 

[Silveras]

Now here comes the difficult bit. According to DMG rules if a wizard has a particular spell on his spell list, and has a high enough ability score to cast it, there's only a small caster level check to stop him/her. I just realized that a 3rd level wizard could walk into a store, purchase (with party funds) a couple of 4th level spells and use them fairly certainly. The caster level check DC is only 8, so if the player doesn't roll between 1 - 4 on a d20 he succeeds at casting the higher level spell.

So what's stopping an enterprising wizard from walking out of such a store with a couple of Ice Storm scrolls tucked in his scroll-case? He will most likely succeed at using those spells when the time comes, and even if he failes the chances of an actual mishap are fairly low (DC 5, so failure results on a roll of 1 - 4, if the wizard has no Wisdom modifier).

Using this system a wizard could start collecting spells that are several levels above him, and still run a fairly small risk of ever harming himself. This seems rather broken to me, but then again I suppose I just don't like my players to have access to Disintegrate at level 3, and have a fairly good chance of casting the spell. (caster level check DC 12)

1) Well, that is in part why the designers at Wizards' discourage the idea of shops that sell magic stuff.

2) Scrolls become a good deal more expensive to create as the caster level rises. If you wish to have such a shop, stop and consider where the supplies come from. Does the shopkeeper scribe the scrolls personally ? That shop must do pretty good business for the shopkeeper to have scrolls of 4th level spells "on the shelves" in case someone wants to buy one. If the scrolls come from other adventurers, well, how many adventurers are going to sell combat spell scrolls ? They may feel overloaded with arcane lock or other miscellaneous spells, but I would doubt that many would sell scrolls they would be likely to need.

So, what stops the wizard from stocking up like that is that there are no such scrolls to be bought. If the shopkeeper is selling whatever "happened to come his way", then the PC can't walk in and look over a rack of spells of all levels and types. S/he can ask "What do you have ?", and you can randomly roll up a few -- that's a far more likely scenario, I would think, all around.

 

[Geoff Watson]

4th level scrolls are expensive enough that the shop is unlikely to have any in stock, and ask the PC to come back in a few days while the scroll is commissioned (the PCs pay a deposit first, of course).

Geoff.

 

[Silveras]

O', and I did have a question as well:

What happens to a spell scroll if the casting fails? Does the spell contained in the scroll disappear, as it does when the spell is cast successfully, or can you keep trying until you succeed?

Well, the DMG only specifically mentions "activated". They also mention "successfully activated" causes the spell to function normally. That would imply that there is also a case of "unsuccessfully activated" -- but such is not spelled out.

I would guess the intent is that the scroll goes blank once you make the caster level check to activate it, but that is my guess.

 

[Telperion]

Okay, thanks for the input.

There is after all a gold piece limit on every town and city, if you go by the DMG rules, so that takes care of some of the problem. And that was a very good point on adventurers and other folks not giving up combat spells, or other necessary ones, for a bit of loose gold.

I think I'll tone down the importance of this sort of shops. They really are dangerous to a campaign. Although I'll keep the clerics around to produce cure potions and such stuff. Good for party survival .

 

[dark2112]

Okay, thanks for the input.

There is after all a gold piece limit on every town and city, if you go by the DMG rules, so that takes care of some of the problem. And that was a very good point on adventurers and other folks not giving up combat spells, or other necessary ones, for a bit of loose gold.

I think I'll tone down the importance of this sort of shops. They really are dangerous to a campaign. Although I'll keep the clerics around to produce cure potions and such stuff. Good for party survival .

I used this tactic a few times as a player, but usually it was more along the lines of realizing that we had no party cleric, and someone had been turned to stone... Overcasting can be powerful, but in all honesty, a party simply can't afford to do it very often. How many 3rd level parties can tote around more than 1 disintigrate and still have swords to swing at the goblin hordes? And, once you use that single-shot spell, you've just blown most of your party wealth. Sure, you easily eliminate the BBEG, but what about all the minions he had helping him? No easy way to deal with that now... And perhaps you were wrong about him being the BBEG, maybe he's only the decoy, and you've just unveiled the true (and tougher) BBEG...

The way my players and I always worked it - if you attempt to cast the spell, whether successful or not, you lose the scroll. Same as if you had blown a concentration check to cast a prepared spell. Scrolls are handy, but I wouldn't be overly concerned about your party getting too many high level scrolls.

Plenty of good pieces of advice have been offered on how to prevent that from happening above, and if the PC's get a little evil and try to rob the place, just remember all the magical wards and traps said shop should have to deter such theft, and also remember that the shopkeeper could always divine who did it if they were successful, and send his own hired NPC squads to bring the players to justice.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

O', and I did have a question as well:

What happens to a spell scroll if the casting fails? Does the spell contained in the scroll disappear, as it does when the spell is cast successfully, or can you keep trying until you succeed?

I've always house-ruled that the spell disappears from the scroll, regardless of the success or failure of the activation check, but the rules do not back this up.

On page 238 of the DMG it specifically refers to the caster level check being required to activate the scroll. Page 237 says specifically that the writing disappears when the spell is activated. This implies that a failed caster level check does not result in the loss of the scroll, EXCEPT:

On a mishap, the spell's energy is released in an uncontrolled way. Though the rules do not specifically say so, it would be reasonable to rule that the spell was activated (albeit wrongly) and, therefore, the scroll is used up.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

...The third part is for a small selection of scrolls. Now here comes the difficult bit. According to DMG rules if a wizard has a particular spell on his spell list, and has a high enough ability score to cast it, there's only a small caster level check to stop him/her. I just realized that a 3rd level wizard could walk into a store, purchase (with party funds) a couple of 4th level spells and use them fairly certainly. The caster level check DC is only 8, so if the player doesn't roll between 1 - 4 on a d20 he succeeds at casting the higher level spell.

So what's stopping an enterprising wizard from walking out of such a store with a couple of Ice Storm scrolls tucked in his scroll-case? He will most likely succeed at using those spells when the time comes, and even if he failes the chances of an actual mishap are fairly low (DC 5, so failure results on a roll of 1 - 4, if the wizard has no Wisdom modifier).

Using this system a wizard could start collecting spells that are several levels above him, and still run a fairly small risk of ever harming himself. This seems rather broken to me, but then again I suppose I just don't like my players to have access to Disintegrate at level 3, and have a fairly good chance of casting the spell. (caster level check DC 12)

1) As others have pointed out, the party can't afford to purchase too many scrolls without exhausting their money. And a scroll, once used, is gone. Many times, the party will have much better uses for the money.

2) Having such things available for true emergencies isn't necessarily a bad thing. I've seen encounters where having the party cleric or wizard succeed at a caster level check saved the party. It adds to the heroic flavor, IMO.

3) I agree with the other posters who suggested that the on-hand stock would likely be quite limited. In addition to requiring the party to commission specific scrolls, you can also require that they provide necessary components for their manufacture. For example, if they want a scroll of displacement, the npc wizard can mention that he doesn't have the right ink. Gee, if the party could just bring him a bit of displacer beast tentacle, he'd be happy to make the ink himself... It's a way of generating a few more adventures, while not making it too easy (though also not impossible) for the party to get what they want.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What happens to a spell scroll if the casting fails? Does the spell contained in the scroll disappear, as it does when the spell is cast successfully, or can you keep trying until you succeed?

3.5 Main FAQ, p10.

If you aren’t of the right level to read a scroll, you have to
make a caster level check to actually use the scroll, right? If
this fails, you have to make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid
a mishap. What happens to the scroll if you fail both
checks? Does the failure erase the scroll? What happens if
you fail the caster level check, but make the Wisdom check?
Is the writing on the scroll still there?
If you do not succeed in activating a scroll spell, the spell is
not used up. If you suffer a mishap when you fail to cast the
spell, however, you activate the scroll after a fashion and the
scroll is wasted. You likewise lose the spell on the scroll if you
fail any Concentration check you might have to make while
using the scroll. You also lose the spell from the scroll or if you
fail any arcane spell failure roll you might have to make when
using the scroll.

-Hyp.