D&D 5E Casting with Shield - Bard Style

[Herbalizer]

So what's the consensus on casting with a shield ?

According to the PHB
1. You can draw or sheath a weapon as part of an action (page 190)
2. You can pick up a dropped weapon as part as an action (page 190)
3. You need a free hand to do the Somatic (S) portion of the spell (page 203)
4. You need a free hand to provide the Component (C), but can use the same hand used for Somatic (page 203)
5. The non-consumable or non-costly components can be replaced by a spell focus (page 203)
6. The Bard can use a musical instrument as a spell focus (page 53)

With that in mind , what would be the mechanics of attack/spellcasting for a Bard with a weapon and SHIELD ? Here's how I think it works:

Round 1: Bard (with Shield in Hand) cast Crowd of Madness (V,S,), draws rapier
Round 2: Bard attacks, sheath sword
Round 3: Bard cast Thunderwave (V,S), draws horn
Round 4: Bard drop shield and cast Sleep (V,S,M) --- (use free hand for Somatic and the other hand to hold/play musical_instrument/spell_focus)
Round 5: Bard picks up Shield, cast Bestow Cure (V,S)
Round 6: Bard draws sword and attack ...

Do the Bard need 2 hands to do Somatic and material ..I understand with a pouch, you can grab powder from it, throw it in the air, then do the hand gesture, but it seems odd to do it while holding a musical instrument ...Also, a wizard would usually hold the spell focus (staff) in one hand and do the gestures with the other hand ...I guess my issue is that it becomes very difficult to cast a spell with a Somatic and Material components if you have a Weapon and Shield..I mean the Valor Bard does get Shield proficiency, so you'd think that he'd be able to do so without complicated mechanics ..and he gets that at 3rd level !! He shouldn't have to be forced to get the War Casting feat to take advantage of a Class feature, no ?

This must have been discussed before, so what is the consensus on this ? Thanks

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Everything was correct up to this point:

Round 4: Bard drop shield and cast Sleep (V,S,M) --- (use free hand for Somatic and the other hand to hold/play musical_instrument/spell_focus) Round 5: Bard picks up Shield, cast Bestow Cure (V,S)

Both putting on and taking off a shield requires 1 action, so you can't drop a shield and cast sleep in the same turn without action surge or some other action-granting feature. Same with picking up the shield, assuming you mean to have it affect your AC again rather than just be holding it.

Do the Bard need 2 hands to do Somatic and material

If a spell has both somatic and material components, you need only have the 1 hand which both manipulates the material component (or musical instrument used as spellcasting focus) and does the somatic gestures.

If there is a somatic component, but not a material component, a strict DM might require the hand making the somatic gestures be free of even material components for other spells or spellcasting focus.

 

[Prism]

It takes an interaction on any round to sheath or draw a weapon so you don't have to put your weapon away the round ahead of the one where you cast. When you need to cast a spell simply sheath your weapon and then use your free hand to cast. However that does mean you are unable to retrieve a musical instrument that same round too. So maybe you would drop your weapon for free if that came up.

Shields are strapped on and take a full action to remove or equip so ideally you aren't going to want to do that.

In theory you use a single hand to hold a material component (or focus) and use somatic gestures. So a wizard would in fact be able to gesture with a wand or staff. However I might allow a simple musical instrument like a horn to be used in this way, as many others would need two hands to play...assuming you apply the logic that the bard actually plays the instrument rather than wave it around in the air like a wand (rather silly interpretation). How do you imagine blowing a horn whilst also using somatic gestures? Not really sure myself.

So in summary, draw and attack with the weapon. Sheath the weapon and cast a somatic only spell. Drop the weapon, retrieve the horn and cast a spell requiring material and somatic gestures.

This affects rangers and eldritch knights too. Paladins and clerics get to use their shield or holy symbol as the focus which is a bit easier. War caster doesn't help as you still need to drop the weapon to retrieve the instrument.

 

[Herbalizer]

It takes an interaction on any round to sheath or draw a weapon so you don't have to put your weapon away the round ahead of the one where you cast. When you need to cast a spell simply sheath your weapon and then use your free hand to cast. However that does mean you are unable to retrieve a musical instrument that same round too. So maybe you would drop your weapon for free if that came up.

Shields are strapped on and take a full action to remove or equip so ideally you aren't going to want to do that.

In theory you use a single hand to hold a material component (or focus) and use somatic gestures. So a wizard would in fact be able to gesture with a wand or staff. However I might allow a simple musical instrument like a horn to be used in this way, as many others would need two hands to play...assuming you apply the logic that the bard actually plays the instrument rather than wave it around in the air like a wand (rather silly interpretation). How do you imagine blowing a horn whilst also using somatic gestures? Not really sure myself.

So in summary, draw and attack with the weapon. Sheath the weapon and cast a somatic only spell. Drop the weapon, retrieve the horn and cast a spell requiring material and somatic gestures.

This affects rangers and eldritch knights too. Paladins and clerics get to use their shield or holy symbol as the focus which is a bit easier. War caster doesn't help as you still need to drop the weapon to retrieve the instrument.

Which is exactly my point ! Because the Bard uses a spellcasting focus that is in reality useless in combat, he seems to have a huge disadvantage !! I mean, even a Wizard (with Shield proficiency) could cast spells with Both Somatic and Material components while holding on to his shield AND his weapon (since the spell focus could be embedded in the staff) ...In fact, if the Bard chooses to go with a component pouch, he'd be more effective since he could Sheath his weapon, reach into his component pouch and use the Material while doing the Somatic with the same hand ! Which kind of defeats the purpose of being, you know, a Bard ...It'd be a Bard who never plays music because rules made it more efficient for him to use Materials instead !

And in the example above, I guess at round 5, the Bard could drop his weapon instead and then cast, but I find that completely unrealistic ! Who, would do such a thing in combat ?! Plus, I know the PHB says picking up a "dropped weapon" can be done in tandem with your action (attacking) and movement, but I find this unreasonable ..If someone is disarmed (or drop his weapon), they should have to use 1 action to pick up the weapon ...if you are fighting someone face to face and you have to pick up your weapon, you're obviously not in position to fight the same way as if you were standing up and preparing your next attack

And yes, it is ridiculous that the Bard can just hold his lyre in one hand (and not play) and wave it around to cast a spell ...I guess I wish that this rule was better written (spell focus and action sequence) specifically for Bards because of that huge disadvantage ...and if it's meant to be a disadvantage (because Bards are finally strong), than at least clearly point it out

 

[AtomicPope]

Lore Bards are easy to play. Interacting with an instrument is no problem because you have lots of spells to choose from. You can fake it and pretend that you're "singing" a spell because you're concentrating. Spells are the Lore Bard, but the Valor Bard is so sharply divided between magic, melee, and music the Valor Bard is always struggling. This is my primary complaint about the 5e Valor Bard - no songs, and instruments interfere with fighting.

I played a Skald human variant Bard with Mobility Feat to act like a swift-footed Viking Raider. We rolled stats so I had a better spread of bonuses. Once I was able to use a Shield I needed the Warcaster Feat otherwise I'd never cast a spell. More importantly, I never used my horn. I never sung a note except the Song of Rest. Much of the game play of the 5e Bard is better than previous editions and I've played lots of Bards, and back in 1e Bards hardly played music at all. The need for a magic instrument was paramount back then and it is again in 5e. By the time we got to 3e the Bard served exclusively as a living bonus. In 3e the Bard rarely acts at all. They start a song and don't stop. In 3e you had to take the Lingering Song feat just to keep the bonuses going when you stopped playing so you could do something else. With 5e there are no combat songs, just an Inspiration. If I were to sound my horn and basically summon the entire dungeon, I'd like to better do a little more than hand out a single D8.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Which kind of defeats the purpose of being, you know, a Bard ...It'd be a Bard who never plays music because rules made it more efficient for him to use Materials instead !

Welcome to 2001. The rules have never encouraged a spellcasting Bard to play an instrument in combat. There were countless Bards with Perform (Singing) and (Oratory) and (Comedy), but lutes and harps were strictly inferior.

Make a decision between sword and shield. You can either swing a sword, or carry a shield, but not both. Then, your free hand is open to grab a horn or something. Or even better -- don't cast spells in combat. You can walk into battle with a sword and a shield, limit yourself to V-only spells while you're there, and then break out the ocarina for a jam session after combat.

I mean, seriously, what kind of fool would stand in the middle of a battlefield, arrows and Fireballs flying overhead, and try to play a lyre? The game rules don't really support it, because it's actually a bad idea.

 

[Herbalizer]

Welcome to 2001. The rules have never encouraged a spellcasting Bard to play an instrument in combat. There were countless Bards with Perform (Singing) and (Oratory) and (Comedy), but lutes and harps were strictly inferior.

Make a decision between sword and shield. You can either swing a sword, or carry a shield, but not both. Then, your free hand is open to grab a horn or something. Or even better -- don't cast spells in combat. You can walk into battle with a sword and a shield, limit yourself to V-only spells while you're there, and then break out the ocarina for a jam session after combat.

I mean, seriously, what kind of fool would stand in the middle of a battlefield, arrows and Fireballs flying overhead, and try to play a lyre? The game rules don't really support it, because it's actually a bad idea.

As foolish as dropping your weapon to cast a spell ...
A Bard is a spell caster ...In the description, it says "You can use a musical instrument (found in chapter 5) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells." The keyword here is "can" ..which means you could play a Bard that carries a component pouch and therefore can cast with a shield (by sheathing his weapon and then grabbing material from the pouch and doing the Somatic with the same hand) ...For everyone else, a spell focus exists to simplify casting (Wizards and Sorcerer can have a crystal embedded in a staff, clerics/paladin can simply carve the symbol on their shield) ...so why make it more complicated for the Bard to use his spell focus which is also part of the "identity" of this class ? It just creates an obstacle for role playing your character as you should and have fun with it. To me, it doesn't make sense ...If playing an instrument in the middle of combat is not supposed to be a good idea, they should either specifically mention it, or not give the Shield proficiency to valor Bards or simply not bother with a Bard class. I mean, there are plenty of spells with (M) that needs to be cast during a battle.

Whether you like Bards or not, I think it is clear that of all the spell caster, the musical instrument mechanic puts the Bard at a disadvantage and I don't think that was the plan ...

 

[Unwise]

Not coming from a D&D background, I really have to ask, does the D&D casting system of components etc really add anything to the game? If you are playing a class designed to use a shield and sword and cast spells, what are you adding to the game by accounting for all this stuff? In a system that tries its best to streamline and get rid of micro-management, why the heck do we even need to have discussions around this?

Why does the warcaster feat need to exist in its current for? Why can a War Cleric/ Eldritch Knight etc wear platemail and wield greatsword, but not be able to use their spells if they don't juggle? It all just seems so arbitrary and silly.

The point seems to be that some spells can't be cast if you are silenced, some can't be cast if you are tied up, some can't be cast if you are robbed of your components. Why not leave it at that? Why not just say that those things come into play in those and similar circumstances.

It just seems like such an odd thing to get hung up on. It is like having an entire rule set for how full your waterskin is. If it is half empty, it will slosh when you sneak, so you get disadvantage. If it is full or empty you are OK. Sure, I see how that makes sense, but seriously, who wants to play like that? Would you make a rogue state that they put down or fill up, or consolidate their waterskins before making a stealth role?

To me, if in combat the class is doing the things you would expect it to do, I don't feel compelled to nerf it or add in micro-management. If the EK is beating people up and casting the odd spell that is fine. If the wizard wants to lift a portculis while casting a somantic spell, we might have an issue. I am sure if I came from a background of an edition where I had to count the feathers and slugs I kept in my mages pockets I might feel differently.

 

[crashtestdummy]

With that in mind , what would be the mechanics of attack/spellcasting for a Bard with a weapon and SHIELD ? Here's how I think it works:

Round 1: Bard (with Shield in Hand) cast Crowd of Madness (V,S,), draws rapier
Round 2: Bard attacks, sheath sword
Round 3: Bard cast Thunderwave (V,S), draws horn
Round 4: Bard drop shield and cast Sleep (V,S,M) --- (use free hand for Somatic and the other hand to hold/play musical_instrument/spell_focus)
Round 5: Bard picks up Shield, cast Bestow Cure (V,S)
Round 6: Bard draws sword and attack ...

As others have pointed out, for round 4 you don't need to drop the shield because the hand with the spell focus (horn) can be used for the somatic component as well as the material component (replaced by the use of a spell focus).

Otherwise, the sequence looks correct.

As an aside, there's nothing in the rules that requires a bard to actually play the musical instrument to cast a spell -- they just have to hold it. So, holding that lyre in one hand is enough to be able to use it as a spell focus. Also, technically, there's nothing that says the musical instrument has to be in good working order, so you're allowed to do the classic rock-and-roll trick of hitting someone over the head with a guitar if you want and still use it cast a spell...

 

[Kobold Stew]

The rules for the bard's implements are especially weak. The devs were told this throughout play testing, and in the end it wasn't seen as something important enough to address (I think on the assumption that most tables won't care). Since it's a personal hobby horse of mine, I'll weigh in...

And yes, it is ridiculous that the Bard can just hold his lyre in one hand (and not play) and wave it around to cast a spell ...I guess I wish that this rule was better written (spell focus and action sequence)

Yes, the rule is badly written:
1. Holding an instrument with one hand is what's required for a bard to cast spells, not actually playing it. (Cue people who point to people playing guitars with one hand; obviously that's not the point.) Lame verisimilitude.
2. Bards get proficiencies in three instruments, but there's no correlation between that proficiency and using an instrument for spell components. Lame internal logic.
3. The list of instruments in the PHB is different from the list of magic instruments for which proficiency might be required in the DMG. Lame proofreading.

To whatever degree this sort of thing bugs you, each table needs to find a solution for all of these things. And, I agree, most won't make a big deal about it.

But you still need workarounds, such as the one Saelorn mentions from 3.x. However, I don't buy this argument:

I mean, seriously, what kind of fool would stand in the middle of a battlefield, arrows and Fireballs flying overhead, and try to play a lyre? The game rules don't really support it, because it's actually a bad idea.

It's actually a bad idea in a non-magical world. given the premises of the game (with fireballs flying overhead), if playing a fife will allow me to actually work magic every six seconds, then darn-tootin' I'd be working on my arpeggios.