Castles & Crusades (box set) playtest report

[Frostmarrow]

To me, what slows down the game, is the constant demand for rolls and checks. I'm not sure C&C remedies this. There are clear cut rules for all kinds of checks in C&C, so really it's more of a problem of how you play the game than how the rules are written.

If C&C had been a system that gave the CM power to decide successes and failures it might have been faster. However, it seems that instead of skill checks you get to roll ability checks. Same problem - only less exact.

Or am I completely off here? I like the idea of role-playing searches and bluffing attempts. In fact I think it's ludicrous to do it any other way. But in the game we have the charisma stat and it demands to be used. So bluffing will eventually evolve into a skill check anyway.

It was the same thing with Vampire the Masquarade when it came 12 years ago. First we thought that it was the perfect RPG for it left everything open to the storyteller and the players. Later people realized that there actually were rules for social interaction and the whole game became a dicefest.

The point I'm trying to make is: If you are going to have a game where you role-play the action you mustn't have game mechanics for it.

 

[Akrasia]

...

If C&C had been a system that gave the CM power to decide successes and failures it might have been faster. However, it seems that instead of skill checks you get to roll ability checks. Same problem - only less exact.

Or am I completely off here? ...

A bit!

It is entirely up to the DM (er ... CK) as to whether or not a roll might be required in a given situation.

You could play C&C quite easily by having the DM/CK determine the success of failure of ALL role-playing encounters, and use ability score checks only for saving throughs and class abilities.

Really, whether you want to use ability roll checks like 3.x skills, or not bother with them at all, is entirely up to you! Either option will not affect or undermine the playability of C&C.

In short, the problem you identify is not a problem!

 

[Akrasia]

Oh yeah, since every ability score affects a certain kind of saving throw, every ability score is important, even if you do not use them as 'de facto skills'.

 

[Frostmarrow]

That's too bad. It seems C&C doesn't address my gripes (...well, we all have them) with D&D.

I'd like to have freedom in role-playing (with no social skills, for instance) and a kick-ass tactical combat system. Perhaps I should stick with D&D?

 

[Akrasia]

That's too bad. It seems C&C doesn't address my gripes (...well, we all have them) with D&D.

I'd like to have freedom in role-playing (with no social skills, for instance) and a kick-ass tactical combat system. Perhaps I should stick with D&D?

I thought I did! :\

There are no -- I repeat no -- social skills in C&C!

(Unless you want to add them as optional rules, heh.)

If you hate social skills, rest assured, they do not exist in C&C. On the other hand, if a person likes 3.x style social skills, then they can -- if they wish -- use ability score checks in that way.

It should be relatively easy to combine C&C with the combat system from 3.x IMO.

 

[Numion]

The difference: the mechanics for handling spells and spell-like abilities are much simpler in C&C than they are in 3.x D&D.

People keep saying that, but pray tell what makes you able to remember the effects of different spells without resorting to RTFM? What is it in the mechanics that makes you remember what is the area of fireball, or whether invisibility spell ends when you touch a member of your own party?

Now those are easy and I remember those in 3e, but whats the conceptual difference that makes you remember different spells in C&C, but not in 3e?

 

[Frostmarrow]

-C&C does have a mechanic for social skills. A player that has charisma 18 prime is going to want to roll checks, instead of role-play situations. Some CMs will be okay with this, some will add boni if the role-playing is good, yet others will not allow it. In any event this will take time to sort out unless you go with the last option. However by going with the last option you nerf the 18-cha-prime-kit. So why bother with cha in the first place?

 

[Akrasia]

... However by going with the last option you nerf the 18-cha-prime-kit. So why bother with cha in the first place?

Well, CHA is the prime requisite for three classes (bard, knight, and one other ... paladin, I think).

Also, CHA is used for saving throws against death attacks, charm, and fear, so even if you don't plan to use it for social skills, it is still a good thing to have!

 

[Frostmarrow]

But strength is used for constriction saves and attacks and damage rolls and swim checks and beating down door checks and climb checks and jump checks ...

The thing is, maybe just maybe, your test drive of the system ran smoothly because you were extra careful with the new system. If taken out for a real spin it might not hold up so well. With that I mean that you allowed for more role-playing than normal and it was a blast - however the system itself doesn't necessarily encourage role-playing over dice rolling.

Sorry if I sound provocative - I'm just trying to pick your brain.

 

[Akrasia]

But strength is used for constriction saves and attacks and damage rolls and swim checks and beating down door checks and climb checks and jump checks ...

The thing is, maybe just maybe, your test drive of the system ran smoothly because you were extra careful with the new system. If taken out for a real spin it might not hold up so well. With that I mean that you allowed for more role-playing than normal and it was a blast - however the system itself doesn't necessarily encourage role-playing over dice rolling.

Sorry if I sound provocative - I'm just trying to pick your brain.

Well I was looking for a 'rules lite' system that would let me focus more on role-playing and campaign plots, and worry less about the rules. C & C worked for me in that respect. Not once did I ask anyone to make a roll for diplomacy or bluff -- everything was focused on the "role-playing experience", so to speak.

Sure, if someone is not looking for a system that will enable them to focus on role playing, and cares more about mechanical things like feats and cool combat maneuvers, then he may not like C & C at all, or simply use it in a very different way than my group did (e.g. make rolls for every NPC interaction, etc.).

I guess my point is that I found C&C to give me what I wanted -- as a DM -- in a fantasy role-playing game in terms of rules (decent mechanics for handling combat, spells, etc.), while not 'getting in the way', or slowing down, the role-playing aspect of the game.

In some respects, C&C is similar to Unisystem games like Buffy or Angel -- it is rules lite system with a pretty simple mechanism for resolving most tasks (combat, magic, stealth, whatever). Unlike Unisystem, though, it draws heavily on the D&D tradition, bringing together aspects of every edition.

I certainly will not claim that it is for everyone. But it satisfies my main desiderata for a good FRPG!