Castles & Crusades (box set) playtest report

[MoogleEmpMog]

The following isn't meant as a knock on Castles and Crusades, which I've never looked closely at, much less DMed. C&C doesn't sound like my cup of tea, although the comparison to the Rules Cyclopedia has me at least slightly interested... of course, I could get a spare RC for all of $12 tomorrow morning and use it with all my old basic D&D books at no charge, with no conversion. But it may well be a functional (more) rules-lite FRPG.

But I'm genuinely shocked the chronic looking-stuff-up-problem people on this thread are voicing.

I've almost totally switched to spell-less d20 (modern and fantasy) and it eliminated essentially all the rules-lookups. For those campaigns that use player-accessible magic, I use the incantation system (Unearthed Arcana and Arcana Unearthed). I've just started looking at the OGL Steampunk magic system as a possible supplement.

Honestly, I've just never experienced the constant rules-referencing for anything but spells, and I saw that just as often in 2e (not so much in RC, but I'm not really sure if that was just a function of very experienced players ). Spells used to take forever to deal with, but from the looks of C&C, it still has the same ungodly awful Vancian casting with a potentially expanding book-o-spells.

What about the non-spell abilities? They just never take time to deal with. The most complicated characters I've ever played or DMed (and I do so love class features), characters with five or six classes from the same number of sources, run smoothly most of the time.

PrC ability? The player or DM will have the book with that most fantastic of inventions... wait for it... a bookmark! Referencing it takes about 2 seconds during another player's turn. After one or two uses, if the ability is worth using, it's remembered. If not, it fades into the background and is rarely enough needed to justify the occaisonal glance at the book.

Feat? Same as PrC abilities.

Racial ability? These either get remembered (halfling luck bonus to saves) or forgotten (dwarven stability), but in a campaign that lasts more than a few sessions, how can the abilities that the PCs have had since first level not be memorable?

Of course, I'm also not using pre-made character sheets. I can't help but wonder if they don't have some organizational problems?

 

[Frostmarrow]

-Agreed. It takes little time to look things up. But it does take time. The people in this thread are all experienced role-players and likely we don't need all those precise rules to have the game run smoothly. You see, the downside of using a rules-lite system is that it is easier to exploit the weaknesses of such a system. However if you trust your gaming fellows and your DM this is not going to be a problem. In the end you have won a couple of minutes* everytime someone casts a spell or uses a fancy ability.

Still, if you do need exact rules they are readily available. We still own the PHB and the DMG and the rules presented there will work with C&C (or so they say). So by using C&C you are free flying until a real (perhaps infected) rules argument comes up. When it does you refer to the DMG as a higher instance of judgement.

There was an interesting article about these things over at Monte Cook's the other day. http://www.montecook.com (DM's Only). He is on to something but still relies on D&D (or AE) to do the job.

* A couple of minutes or two seconds matters little. It's all in the experience of waiting. Some people don't mind waiting and others do. -I certainly don't like waiting, even if it's only for two seconds.

 

[cjs]

Yo-hoo. My box is shipped. I just got word from Steve.

-Does anyone know how long it takes for a box to cross the Atlantic and reach Scandinavia?

The official word from USPS for Global Priority Mail is 4-6 days, but I believe I had to wait longer than that, and so did many others. Strange, because most parcels arrive within a week. Perhaps the cheese box had to be inspected in customs?

 

[gideon_thorne]

But I'm genuinely shocked the chronic looking-stuff-up-problem people on this thread are voicing.

Actually mate, its quite simple for at least one of us to explain. I have poor detail memory. Now a friend of mine can pretty much memorize the most complex of rules sets and have that information on ready recall. He never has to look stuff up.

Myself, on the other hand, suffer from overload when dealing with too much information at one time. I can grasp the concept of anything with a single read through but it takes too long and too many re-reads to not have to constantly re-reference things to look up what I need to construct a 3rd edition character. (which is why I write every number down on the character sheet that I possiblty can)

Dont get me wrong. I am not knocking the 3rd + edition games in any way shape or form. I can have a blast playing in any game system since I think fun is the most important part of the game. And ive enjoyed developing a couple of 3rd edtion characters. But there is a whole lot of information out there for the whole d20 line and I could make a comparison to the Magic card game where people are always out to get the next book to be able to trump the game with the latest feat stack

I personally dont need that level of complexity to create a character. I don't need every shade of ability broken down into numbers (feats et al) to construct a unique character. Game master tolerance can go a long way to help allow the sort of flexable interpretation of broad rules that I can work with.

Now. I do like systems where one can modify a character based on concept, the Champions system comes to mind.

But all I have ever needed and wanted is a system that has a baseline of rules and a tolerant game master willing to allowe creative solutions with available tools.

 

[WSmith]

Gimme a good game of 1st edition AD&D or Rules Compendium D&D any day - hopefully C&C is today's version of this.

Depending on where you are in NJ, we may have the just what the doctor ordered.

 

[rangerjohn]

Oh. I don't see it that way at all. If I role-play a bluffing attempt a check only slows down play and risks making the answer non-sequiteur. The dice will not make allowances for good arguments. Perhaps the DM will adjust the result a bit but that only slows down play even more. Rolling dice in conversation is a bit too Monty Python-esque for my tastes.

You can't be serious comparing attack rolls and diplomacy? Just because I enjoy doing my own talking doesn't mean I like to do my own fighting.

The only problem with this is, if the player is not an actor or politician, he best not want to play a bard. Or a bluffing rouge for that matter. In other words he's stuck with the players abilty not the character's, where's the role play in that.

Where if John the geek wants to play Conan all he has to do is roll the dice. Or look up his carrying capacity, If he wants to lift 500 lbs. Where is the balance in this?

 

[Grayhawk]

The only problem with this is, if the player is not an actor or politician, he best not want to play a bard. Or a bluffing rouge for that matter. In other words he's stuck with the players abilty not the character's, where's the role play in that.

Where if John the geek wants to play Conan all he has to do is roll the dice. Or look up his carrying capacity, If he wants to lift 500 lbs. Where is the balance in this?

Where's the balance in playing poker against a better card player?

Why is it inherently 'bad' to cultivate better roleplaying through the requirement of actually roleplaying roleplay situations?

Besides, a fair DM wil reward the effort as well as the actual words said, and in time even the shy guy might develop better social skills.

Trying to get better at roleplaying have always been a goal, at least for my group, as it can be fun and challenging for players of all types. IMO.

 

[rangerjohn]

Do you require the guy playing the warrior to take up weight lifting, learn to construct armor and weapons? Study tactics, beyond a rudimentory level. Study self/defense martial arts? Do aerobics to build up endurance? All of these could be said to broaden the players horizons or improve his health. If your purpose in a game is self improvement, at least be consistant.

 

[Grayhawk]

Do you require the guy playing the warrior to take up weight lifting, learn to construct armor and weapons? Study tactics, beyond a rudimentory level. Study self/defense martial arts? Do aerobics to build up endurance?

No, I don't.

And unless you have trouble differentiating between what can be solved through roleplaying and what should be left to the rules, I don't see why you would.

All of these could be said to broaden the players horizons or improve his health. If your purpose in a game is self improvement, at least be consistant.

I wasn't really talking about 'self improvement' as much as about simply getting better at playing the game. Which, IMO, is one of the primary driving forces behind any game. (Right up there with 'Having Fun'.)

To me and those I play with, that has always meant getting better at playing your role (when it comes to a roleplaying game). As such, we've always encouraged some friendly competition by awarding bonus xp to the better roleplayers. Unfair? Maybe. But when I recently removed that bonus in an attempt to shift the focus more towards the 'equal xp for all' and the 'team approach' advocated by 3.x, my players (even those who seldom got the bonus) felt I was taking something away from the game; not the other way around. I guess they like their carrot!

Please note, that I can certainly understand your point of view, and if you feel the challenge of playing D&D lies somewhere else, that's great. As long as you and your group is having fun, you're obviously playing the game the best way possible.

But that doesn't mean that doing it differently by someone else isn't the best way for them.

I'm not saying you're doing this, but merely relegating social encounters in D&D to a roll of the die would *to me* take away what makes a roleplaying game unique compared to all other types of games.

 

[CrusaderX]

If this has been asked before, then my apologies, but what is the default setting or world for C&C? Does it even have one?