Castles of Crystal, Wars of Genocide!

[Snoweel]

I agree the magic level has to be toned down to maintain any sort of pseudo-medieval feel (with emphasis on the pseudo).

However, upping NPC levels, so that 1st level represents a useless teenager is definitely the smart way to go.

Though I'm not comfortable with primary spellcasters above about 13th level. For reasons of challenge (like a good mystery, for example) as well as campaign flavour.

 

[solous]

Quite an interesting world...

Hello to everybody,

I've been lurking for a little while on these boards, but never posted before.
Then i just began to read this topic, and felt increasingly interested by the world Shark (or shall I say Mr Shark ?) has created.

While I can perfectly see that it would not appeal to every gamer, I'm greatly interested in knowing more about what appears to be an extremely rich, vivid, and definitely EPIC world.

So here are a few(for a start) questions to Shark :

*Which mass combat rules do you use ?
*Have you developped rules related to managing the ressources and the diplomatic relationships of the great empires of your world ?
*Is there any document/webpage etc outlining your campaign world ?

 

[WizarDru]

I am not talking about killing 10'000 troops at the cost of one mage, I am talking about using epic spells to wipe out the entire army of 800'000 while staying relatively save in the ceremonial chamber in the capitol.

Well, that may be, but it certainly isn't going to happen based on the Epic level spells in the ELH. 'Baleful Gaze of God', one of the most powerful ELH spells, isn't going to kill 1000 enemies, let alone 800,000.

I think what Shark is saying is that in his world, mages ARE powerful...so powerful that enemy mages have spent decades formulating counter-measures against them. In essence, many of the complaints about high-level play (such as scrying problems, divination magic, super powerful spells short-changing play) are addressed in Shark's game by a variety of factors, not the least of which is high-powered items and counter-spell magic. I'm not sure I'd do things exactly Shark's way, but that's his game, not mine.

I would agree that for large-scale military combat, by-the-book D&D offensive spells work better than defensive for large groups. No question to my mind. I would contend that the same is NOT true for small scale groups, which is what D&D is designed around. It's not hard to believe that in world where such large powerful magic conflagrations take place, specific mages and clerics would have researched new spells to apply to such situations (such as an enhanced, non-personal invisbility purge, for example).

I'll have to read the DMG section where they discuss the frequency of spellcasters, as per jgb's reference. 1 in 50, assuming the conservative number, is still not terribly high. If 90% of those characters are 3rd level and below, they're not terribly frightening. If they are empowered via the use of scrolls...well, so are the rogues and bards.

I would agree that magic does present a problem at higher levels when it can dominate a game...but that's not so much a function of epic level play as a problem of D&D in general.

 

[Fenes 2]

Well, that may be, but it certainly isn't going to happen based on the Epic level spells in the ELH. 'Baleful Gaze of God', one of the most powerful ELH spells, isn't going to kill 1000 enemies, let alone 800,000.
[/B]

The spells in the ELH are, by and large, stupid. the 5-energy "Hellball" (iirc), f.e., is not exactly a spell an intelligent caster should research. I would think with non-epic spells alone you could do better against Armies (Imagine a Wall of Fire that moves at high speed over the battlefield. Or just word that wish well, use it to drop a mountain on opponents, for example, if nothing else works.
The epic spells in the ELH are about as epic as meteorswarm, and about as cost-effective, imho, as a plain +5 sword that hurts the wielder for 1d4 damage each time it is swung.

 

[WizarDru]

The spells in the ELH are, by and large, stupid. the 5-energy "Hellball" (iirc), f.e., is not exactly a spell an intelligent caster should research. I would think with non-epic spells alone you could do better against Armies (Imagine a Wall of Fire that moves at high speed over the battlefield. Or just word that wish well, use it to drop a mountain on opponents, for example, if nothing else works.
The epic spells in the ELH are about as epic as meteorswarm, and about as cost-effective, imho, as a plain +5 sword that hurts the wielder for 1d4 damage each time it is swung.

They're epic in scope, within the realm of being relatively balanced. You want deific battles, that's great....but the ELH doesn't provide for that. As Andy Collins pointed out, "just because you rolled over the counter to 21, doesn't mean you should start crank-calling Loki." Meteor Swarm is good, but we were, in some ways, slightly underwhelmed by it's potency, when I actually saw it in use in-game.

Quite honestly, how many times does someone cast a spell that kills 800,000 sentient beings at ONE TIME? In Greyhawk, for example, the sum collective of spellcasters from two whole empires did this, with divine aid and ancient artifacts...and they each cast it once (because there was no one left alive to cast a second time). If someone who has that power isn't a demi-god or full fledged diety....well, then, what the heck can THEY do? And if they are more powerful...why don't they trump said uber-beings? I know _I_ wouldn't want you butchering 800,000 of my followers.

"Hellball" isn't as cost efficient as it could, that's true. But it does deliver a wide-spectrum of damage types at once, allowing a caster to hit multiple targets and possibly damage all of them, regardless of their defenses. It's power and utility are probably very situationally and campaign specific...but I don't think I'd label it as 'stupid'. YMMV.

 

[Fenes 2]

WizarDru, I am not saying anyone in Greyhawk or any other setting I know could cast such spells, but SHARK's world, as I understand it, is high-powered. There, imho, epic spellcasting should be more powerful.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Solous wrote:
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Hello to everybody,

I've been lurking for a little while on these boards, but never posted before.
Then i just began to read this topic, and felt increasingly interested by the world Shark (or shall I say Mr Shark ?) has created.

While I can perfectly see that it would not appeal to every gamer, I'm greatly interested in knowing more about what appears to be an extremely rich, vivid, and definitely EPIC world.

So here are a few(for a start) questions to Shark :

*Which mass combat rules do you use ?
*Have you developped rules related to managing the ressources and the diplomatic relationships of the great empires of your world ?
*Is there any document/webpage etc outlining your campaign world ?"
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Welcome Solous!

Well, to answer your questions, I would say the following:

(1) I essentially use the Mongoose mass combat rules as presented in the Quintessential Fighter, modified with some customized sections for my campaign.

(2) Indeed, I have a section of rules that determine the various resources of various empires and kingdoms, that provide the following:

Army Rating: Essentially an indexed number that is a quality rating of that nation's land forces. A scaled reading of this number effects the nation's Diplomatic Rating.

Navy Rating: Essentially an indexed number that is a quality rating of that nation's naval forces. A scaled reading of this number effects the nation's Diplomatic Rating.

Supply Rating: This indexed number determines the number of months that the nation can support a full-scale war before the troop formations begin to degrade across their deployment spectrum.

Trade Rating: This indexed number indicates the diversity of the nation's goods and services, as well as the nation's relative wealth. This number effects the nation's Diplomatic Rating.
Rights and Freedoms: This indexed number provides a quick estimation of the relative level of freedom that the people of a nation enjoy. This number also effects the nation's Diplomatic Rating.

Foreign Relations Rating: This indexed number determines the nation's reputation and relationships with foreign neighbors. There is a general standard, which is the nation's general attitude and practice, and then there are individual ratings for each of its nieghbors that have contact with the nation. The base standard effects the nation's Diplomatic Rating.

Diplomatic Rating: This indexed number estimates and tracks the nation's diplomatic muscle and influence. The nation's alignment forms a base number, modified by the other numbers that figure into it. The nation's Diplomatic Rating is updated and reviewed on a yearly basis. Diplomatic Ratings also determine that nation's yearly amount of Diplomatic Points. Nations that have strong Diplomatic Ratings, can broker advantageous trade deals, intervene in diplomatic talks, have higher chances of gaining allies, initiating trade embargoes, forge strong alliances, and accomplish an array of various actions on other countries through spending Diplomatic Points. For example, countries that have high amounts of Diplomatic Points can have a direct impact on foreign countries, like influence checks that can change marriages, inheritances, starting/stopping wars, effect military and foreign policy, authorize/stop assassination attempts, authorize foreign military intervention, large cash grants, and many other actions. Diplomatic Points can be spent in a nation's Weekly or Monthly Diplomacy Phase.

(3) Unfortunately, I don't have a website just yet, though that may be a future development.

Feel free to ask more questions Solous!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[barsoomcore]

Hey SHARK, as always, a lively and fascinating discussion. I love hearing about your world, even though your imaginative power makes my eyes glaze over at times! In a good way, I mean.

Barsoom works on a VERY different paradigm than your campaign, even though I think we both consider high-level magic very seriously.

Many people have pointed out that magic is better on offense than on defense, which I agree with, but I think there is a reason for it that hasn't been mentioned yet.

Magic is resource-independent. That is, an 18th-level wizard can cast wish every day at no expense to himself or those around him. He doesn't consume any resources in doing so and so his ability to do so can never be taken away from him through any means other than direct confrontation. You can't starve him, you can't out-manuver him, you can't take away his allies. Well, you can, but none of that will effect his ability to cast those spells.

There is no form of technology in our world that even approaches this idea. It's a fundamentally different kind of power, one that has no analogue in our world. Power without resources.

It is nothing short of utterly terrifying.

Your campaign largely posits the nobility of the human spirit. Good people rally together and fight the forces of darkness, striving mightily to hold back the waves of evil and horror that threaten to sweep over the world. Presumably they are led by inspiring examples of courage and leadership and together they hold fast against their common enemies.

Which I love. But Barsoom is a much darker place. On Barsoom, the paranoids have won. Resource-independent power favours paranoia. When you don't have to rely on anyone else for your daily power, you can afford to simply eliminate all potential threats.

Sure, if you go about it poorly you'll get found out and stopped. Which is why the paranoid thrive. The ones who don't get found out. The ones who succeed. And people being what they are, eventually someone will succeed. And once they have, it's game over. Barsoom's game was over long, long ago.

Barsoom is usually presented as a low-magic world. There are no spellcasting classes, very few magic items, no dragons or other magical creatures running about.

That's because they've been almost completely exterminated. By the real powers. Humans who have learned the secrets of magic so completely that they have for all intents and purposes become gods. Gods who in many ways are more powerful than those described in D&DG.

The Demon Goddess, who with nothing more than a thought, as a partial action, can do more than 80 points of temporary Constitution damage to each living thing within a quarter-mile of her. No saving roll, no spell resistance.

The Tyrant's Shade, who can command the minds of an entire race and send them frothing into battle at his slightest whim. Who can create walls of fire miles long that rush forward faster than the swiftest bird can fly.

The Queen of Serpents, Ky'in, the oldest and wickedest of them all, who can enter the dreams of every living thing and slay them without thought.

None of these horrible beings will tolerate the slightest hint of a threat. A rising power's only hope is to try and play one off the other. No easy feat given their Intelligence is over 40 and their abilities to discern the truth, to learn what has happened in the far corners of the world and their ruthless devotion to keeping themselves alive.

Barsoom is actually a high-magic world. A very high-magic world, but one where the operating paradigm is not heroism, as in your world, but desperation and self-preservation. Where being a hero is almost impossible.

Almost, but hopefully not quite.

It's very interesting seeing the difference between your campaign, where heroism is a matter of course, indeed a requirement just to survive, and Barsoom, where heroism is discouraged at every turn and the rewards for it are non-existent.

Both tough worlds. Both, I hope and imagine, fun to adventure in.

 

[Dragonblade]

It seems that a lot of you find SHARK's world "unrealistic" because you hold to PC/NPC character level demographics put forth by Monte Cook in the DMG.

A sort of pyramid scheme with 100 1st level guys for every 2nd level character, 100 2nd level characters for every 3rd level, etc.

Well, it doesn't work that way in SHARK's world. Just because the enemy army is composed of 10,000 10th level Beastmen warriors doesn't mean that 1,000,000 1st level guys are back home sharpening their axes.

SHARK uses level to denote power and ability. He thinks his Beastmen should have a certain number of feats, skill ranks, HP, Attack bonus, etc. Then he gives them whatever level comes closest to achieving that.

There is no pyramid scheme. Level in SHARK's world is not so much a metagame measurement of progression as it is a guage of the skill, power, and ability of a given character right now.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Dragonblade, preach on brother, preach on!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK