[CD] Turn Variant

[Quidam]

We recently switched to using the turning variant described in Complete Divine. It allows good clerics to do 1d6/cleric level to all undead within 30ft, giving them a will save for half damage- turn resistance is subtracted from the damage. Evil clerics can heal undead the same way.

One thing I've noticed is that it removes the ability of evil clerics to bolster undead against turning, meaning that if the good cleric turns first, he can potentially wipe out the undead before the evil cleric can heal them.

I've considered adding the ability for evil cleric to, instead of healing undead by turning, granting temporary hit points that don't stack with successive turn checks. This seems to be a way to allow a form of bolstering.

Has anyone else used this variant? How did you feel it played out?

 

[Kerrick]

Instead of granting hp, why not grant a bonus to turn resistance equal to the cleric's Cha modifier? It's basically the same thing, but it fits in better with the idea of bolstering, IMO.

And no, I haven't used that system. There was a thread around here, ages ago, where a bunch of us were kicking around an alternate turning system, and though there were some really good ideas, we never came to a real consensus.

 

[Quidam]

not quite the same...

I wouldn't say it's basically the same thing. Say you've got two 8th level clerics and a pack of zombies. If the evil cleric bolsters using your method, a single turn attempt by the good cleric will still very likely ash the zombs.

Normal bolstering increases the undead's effective hit dice vs. turning, making it possible- if the evil cleric rolled well on her turn check- for the zombies to be untouched by the good cleric's turn attempt due to having effectively more hit dice than the good cleric can effect.

Using my thought of granting temporary hit points evens it out- the evil cleric bolsters and they get +8d6 for 10r, then the good cleric turns and wipes out 8d6.

Due to the system's simplicity, I'll stick with it for a while, but am considering moving over to the alternate turn rules in Unearthed Arcana requiring level checks and resulting in paralysis. It's more complicated than this variant but less complicated than the RAW, but I suspect it's more balanced than the one from Complete Divine.

 

[Dalamar]

You could make bolstering add to the saving throw for half damage. That way it'd help out the about-same-level undead, but weaker ones would prolly still be pulverized.

 

[Jarrod]

We use it, but modified so that turn resistance gives a bonus to the Will save instead of reducing damage. After all, -4 damage on a 9d6 turn attempt is a little puny. However, the will-for-half will still leave mooks getting vaporized, so perhaps temporary HP is the right way to go.

The "reduced damage" reminds me of ray specialization... "Disintegrate! 20d6, plus TWO for my specialization!" Yay....

 

[Quidam]

pulverization

You could make bolstering add to the saving throw for half damage. That way it'd help out the about-same-level undead, but weaker ones would prolly still be pulverized.

But my point was that with bolstering RAW, a mook-level undead could have their effective HD raised, allowing them to be completely unaffected by the positive turn attempt.

I'm trying to re-create this possibility using the damage variant. If the NE cleric bolsters and rolls poorly and the PE cleric rolls better, the mooks' own HP will be so low as to not absorb the difference and- poof!- they're dust. So both potential outcomes could occur with the THP variant variant.

 

[Quidam]

It occurs to me that limiting the NE cleric to JUST granting THP weakens them in one respect. THPs don't stack, so while under the normal variant a NE cleric can heal then heal then heal, the THP NE cleric would be limited to 'healing' a total of what they roll. Useless until the undead is damaged again.

So- give the NE cleric the choice to heal or grant THP? Or would that unbalance things? Giving them the choice would be like letting the THP stack until it exceeds the undead's maximum HP. Doesn't seem too unbalancing to me- a rebuke/command attempt heals, a bolster effect grants THP.