Celestial Disciple PrC

[Nifft]

I was thinking that Clerics could have easy access, Monks and Paladins would get in quickly and Fighters/Rangers/Barbarians could take Iron Will and have a decent Wisdom to get in early.

But I'm not someone who would really care if a player took this at 4th level. DMs who wanted their players to wait could simply deny the quest until the PC was of the appropriate level... so how about replacing the Save requirement with a +5 BAB requirement?

-- Nifft

 

[jlhorner1974]

IIRC, Most PrC's I've seen list a particular saving throw requirement as a minimum BASE save. That is, feats like Iron Will and bonuses from high ability scores do not count -- only the Base Saving Throw earned from classes counts. So requiring a base Fort Save +4 and base Will Save +4 would allow Monks and Clerics to qualify quickly, and other classes to take longer. But I agree that the wide gap in good and bad base saves makes it almost impossible for some classes to qualify.

A 10 level PrC definitely seems appropriate here. The ability buffs are quite powerful, but not overwhelmingly so. I suppose they pale by comparison to a cleric's spell progression, so I don't think they are unbalanced -- this PrC as it is could be even be (I may get stoned for this) a bit underbalanced compare to a regular cleric.

The only thing I worry about is having resurrection as a 1/day spell like ability. I would worry about any prestige class having this ability. Will resurrection require an XP cost or a material component? If it were me, I might limit resurrection to 1/week. I tend to prefer more restricted raise dead/resurrection magic, so your mileage may vary.

I realize that this PrC is based closely on the Half-Celestial template, and in that determines many of your class abilities. If that is what the character wants, then that's great.

As a player though, the class doesn't quite have that "excitement factor" that I look for in a prestige class. The class is basically ability and save buffs, elemental immunities, and a lot of spell-like abilities. Except for the 10th level powers (the Apothesis and Resurrection), there isn't much there that you couldn't get from the regular cleric spell list.

Considering the person taking this PrC will not be much of a spell caster, maybe you could give something cool that would expand their options. Maybe come up with a list or list(s) of celestial "gifts" which the player can choose from as they advance through the PrC, which would include the spell like abilities you mentioned earlier any maybe offer other choices like a free divine feat chosen from Defenders of the Faith, Fast Healing, some kind of "Divine luck" that acts like a Luckstone or gives a bonus to any one die roll (player's choice) per day. SR and DR would probably make this class too badass, IMO.

As a player, I'd be much more interested in this than in a laundry list of 1/day spell like abilities.

The Dragon Disciple did let you choose which type of dragon you wanted to emulate, right?

Keep in mind that the tougher the requirements are for someone to qualify for a PrC, the better the benefits should be. The Contemplative is a perfect example of this. He is extremely high-powered compared to a cleric, but the steep requirements for it make up for it (cannot qualify until level 11 at earliest). Thus, making the requirements steeper and adding more benefits is an option as well. I would tend to think that becoming a half-celestial would be something the gods would want your character to be fairly committed to (and wait for)... Make it really worth the wait though!

Don't take my criticisms too harshly though. I think a half-celestial PrC is a great idea, even as is. If what you want is to stick as close to the half-celestial template as possible, then ignore everything I just said.

I'm just trying to encourage you to think beyond the boundaries and create something truly unique!

Good luck!

 

[Nifft]

Nah, I just want to see if this is "balanced". If it is, then I can make more customized versions (based on specific celestials -- just like the Half-Dragon is of a specific type of Dragon). But I think you're right -- the fact that you lose so many levels of spellcasting makes this a lame PrC for anyone who's interested in sheer power.

The classes I see getting the most milage out of it would actually be Paladins and Barbarians.

Anyway, if you've seen my previous attempts at PrC creation, you know I favor let-the-player-choose ability lists instead of "laundry lists" ... but the laundry list is easier to balance, and spells are a great "currency" for power -- it's easy to see what level of power each one represents.

Thanks for your input, I'll crank out some specific Half-Celestial templates and Disciple PrCs this weekend (I hope).

-- Nifft

 

[jlhorner1974]

The ability buffs and poison saves are not ridiculous, and are comparable to Dragon Disciple. At higher levels, the buffs are less meaningful anyway, since many classes will have the higher ability boosting items anyway.

The three elemental resistances/immunities is quite powerful, arguably the best feature of the class. This is a potential unbalancer worth considering. However, Fire was excluded, which is probably one of the more common (and most damaging) energy forms.

The flight ability at 10th level is not a problem.

Of course, the spells come directly from the template, and are generally not bad. Holy Aura 3/day seems a bit much for an 8th level spell, but that's what the template says. I suppose it's not too hideous. And I am still concerned about Resurrection. Resurrection 1/day for free still seems quite powerful to me for a PC, even though that is what the template says. I'm in a generous mood today so.... I'd say, let 'em have the 1/day, but enforce the material component as usual so it isn't TOO easy.

There is a lot of stuff going on here, so balance is a bit hard to nail down precisely... I can't quite make up my mind whether it's weak, balanced, or strong. Three immunities, decent ability buffs, and unlimited flight are quite strong.

Compared to a dragon disciple, this class has more abilities, but it does lack the potent breath weapon ability -- so overall I'd say it's roughly equal to Dragon Disciple. So in this sense, I'd say it's balanced.

The confusing thing is that it lacks real offensive powers, any real combat feats or special abilities, and a great hit die. It also lacks spellcasting advancement and the spells are fixed, so it seems to lag behind the cleric a little also. So in this sense, it seems a little underpowered. As you said though, this class is more for roleplaying/story purposes than it is for power and abilities.

If you do feel the class is weak (and I think it's possible to make a case for that), you can add something small to it. Maybe bump up detect evil to at will instead of 1/day (given the strong connection to good), or maybe something like the Divine Grace or Lay on Hands paladin ability.

Putting the analysis completely aside, the simplest test may be the best of all. Stepping back and looking at the whole, I can't really say that I'd be afraid to let this in my game, so I would say no, I don't think it is terribly unbalanced, even as is.

 

[Nifft]

If you do feel the class is weak (and I think it's possible to make a case for that), you can add something small to it. Maybe bump up detect evil to at will instead of 1/day (given the strong connection to good), or maybe something like the Divine Grace or Lay on Hands paladin ability.

Paladins have to remain good for something

IMO the strength of this class isn't offensive, it's defensive. So if I wanted to improve it, I'd make all saving throws "good" instead of just two. That's similar to but not overlapping with Divine Grace, and jibes with my 'outsider advancement' rule choice.

I agree that it's kind of weak, which is why I'd wanted to try to cram all this good stuff into 5 levels -- but then it's too strong. *sigh*

-- Nifft