Celestial Mithral plate armor - ?

[Cedric]

I'll just stick with my +5 Chain Mithral Shirt of Heavy Fortification thanks...

 

[Wolf72]

somewhere, someone, way back in house rules decontsructed celestial armor ... they came up with a 'celestial' enchantement that was basically 1/3 of what the armor was ... then used that same enchantement 3x to get the version in the DMG.

iirc each use was +1 to market price, +2 to max dex, -1 ACP, -5% ASF, and considered 1 category lighter. Flight enchantment was seperate using the fly spell.

*riiiight, it's much to hot around here and I'm to cheap to use the AC ... back to the boards!*

 

[HeavyG]

Not necessarily. the armor you just described has a better AC yes, but is it better for all rogues? Lets take my rusty 'ol +5 mithral chain of nimbleness and throw on Glamered (change armor appearance), Slick (+10 escape artist), Shadow (+10 hide), and Silent Moves (+10 move silently), all +1 modifiers and all abilities important to rogues, and all for the same price as your high AC armor.

You can add all that to your +1 celestial armor though. However, you can't add AC to the chain shirt. So, the celestial armor is more versatile. Thus, better. Or, you could have a glamered, click, shadow +1 mithral celestial full plate of nimbleness and silent moves, then have you friendly local buff cleric cast magical vestment on it and that way get the AC and the abilities.

Besides, 8000gp is cheap even if we were only talking about the flying (which doesn't take up a magical item slot). The extra +1 max dex and possibility to add to the armor's bonus is just gravy.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

You can add all that to your +1 celestial armor though. However, you can't add AC to the chain shirt. So, the celestial armor is more versatile. Thus, better.

Is it versatility now?

Lets take a quick look...

Celestial Mithral plate-mail +1 ---> you have +5 points/slots of magic ability versatility (and NEVER any more than that)

Mithral chain shirt +1 ---> you have +9 points/slots of magic ability versatility (and imagine a cleric AC buffing this bad boy too )

There will ALWAYS be more versatility with mithral chain, going the celestial route locks you out of 4 points. And yes, Celestial plate-mail will ALWAYS have higher AC potential, so one has more versatility and the other has higher AC, which is better?

Neither.

 

[Hypersmurf]

For those who are allowing it, the "Celestial" quality is a +4 modifier.

That's an assumption, and the method doesn't work on a lot of the specific Armors or Weapons.

Rhino Hide is +2 Hide Armor with a special ability.

+2 Hide Armor costs 4,165gp.
+2 Hide Armor with a +1 MPM ability costs 9,165gp.
Rhino Hide costs 5,165gp.

Obviously, "Rhinocity" can't be represented by a MPM.

Plate Armor of the Deep is +1 Full Plate with a special ability.
+1 Full Plate costs 2,650gp.
+1 Full Plate with a +2 MPM ability costs 10,650gp.
+1 Full Plate with a +3 MPM ability costs 17,650gp.
Plate Armor of the Deep costs 16,650gp.

"Deeposity" can't be represented by a MPM.

The fact that Celestial Armor costs the same as +1 Chainmail with a +4 MPM ability doesn't mean that "Celestiality" can automatically be assumed to be a +4 MPM ability. Given the other specific weapon and armor pricing, it's more likely to be coincidence...

-Hyp.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

The fact that Celestial Armor costs the same as +1 Chainmail with a +4 MPM ability doesn't mean that "Celestiality" can automatically be assumed to be a +4 MPM ability. Given the other specific weapon and armor pricing, it's more likely to be coincidence...

-Hyp.

You are correct. I would give the "Celestialization" of armor a flat 24,000 gp value, IMC. The +4 was from an earlier post which I ran with to prove a point. But again, the "cost" of "Celestiality" is not given anywhere either, be it +4 modifier or a flat amount.

It would be nice to get some kind of ruling.

By the way, have you checked out the new and improved [3.5] Celestial Armor.... (look twards the bottom left)

http://www.gamingreport.com/modules...le=index&req=ShowFile&file_wrap=html/dd16.htm

It's +3 chain now instead of +1, and for 3000 gps less than the [3.0] +1 version...

Also note the caster level, says: lvl 5, it should be a lvl 9 requirement (for the +3 enchantment). We already need an errata before the official release, oh boy here we go again...

 

[HeavyG]

Is it versatility now?

Lets take a quick look...

Celestial Mithral plate-mail +1 ---> you have +5 points/slots of magic ability versatility (and NEVER any more than that)

Mithral chain shirt +1 ---> you have +9 points/slots of magic ability versatility (and imagine a cleric AC buffing this bad boy too )

Oops and here I thought we were comparing celestial mithral full plate +1 with mithral chain shirt +5. Sorry.

Also, this point would be completely invalid if you do this :

You are correct. I would give the "Celestialization" of armor a flat 24,000 gp value, IMC.

That is even sicker !

It does have a precedent in 3.5E though.

It would be nice to get some kind of ruling.

Earlier posters made it plenty clear why, by the rules, this wouldn't work. Let's see if we can count the different ways in which it wouldn't work :

#1) Celestial armor is not an armor power and can't be added to any armor type. It is limited to +1 chain mail. Why ? Because adding a great power to bad armor types in a way for them to be seen in game. Same deal with the rhino hide.

#2) Celestial armor is described as being made of gold and silver (or is it gold or silver ? I forget). Thus, it can't be made of mithral.

#3) Celestial armor is already like mithral, only better. Stacking them would be too much.

I'm sure I forgot one or two though.

All this is moot under rule 0 of course.



Personally, I was just debating to make you see that this house rule you're contemplating is kinda imbalanced. But it's your game.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

#1) Celestial armor is not an armor power and can't be added to any armor type. It is limited to +1 chain mail. Why ? Because adding a great power to bad armor types in a way for them to be seen in game. Same deal with the rhino hide.

But I fail to see the imbalance if the armor was +3 (like in the new[3.5] version) or even +4 or +5. Also, why not Celestial on a chain shirt, afterall, its just chainmail with less "chain"

#2) Celestial armor is described as being made of gold and silver (or is it gold or silver ? I forget). Thus, it can't be made of mithral.

I take the "bright silver or gold" description as a color discriptor, not as a material discriptor. The "Celestialization" process makes the armor look bright silver or gold. Besides, can you imagine if it was really made of gold (24k that is, no alloys in DnD). Everytime you sit down, you would crush off links of gold, making alot of people very happy. And hey, shouldn't the gold version cost alot more than the silver version? 1 gp = 10 sp

#3) Celestial armor is already like mithral, only better. Stacking them would be too much.

Matter of opinion. Opinions (yours and mine) vary.

All this is moot under rule 0 of course.

All of DnD, the whole multiverse and it's contents is moot under rule 0, but what fun would that be?

Personally, I was just debating to make you see that this house rule you're contemplating is kinda imbalanced. But it's your game.

Yes, I know that's what you were trying to do, and I appreciate it

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

For what it's worth I think the Celestial armor sucks as is.

I *do* think that Holy/Celestial and Unholy/Fiendish and the like would make good armor enchancements...

Holy - armor has its armor check penalty reduced by 1 (stacklable with material), generates a Protection from Evil effect (either constantly or simply x many time per day).

Unholy - same thing but Protection from Good.

Celestial - magic circle effect and flight?, possibly a DR of 5/Evil?
Fiendish - same.

The drawback is you have to be of the proper alignment descriptor (Law, Good, Evil, Chaos) or else the armor actually doubles its penalty and restricts your movement by 10ft (making uncooperative heavy armor -16 to use skills and a base move of 10ft.).

Make aligned armor expensive (maybe requiring special materials, or the blessing of a high level cleric or even an outsider). Case solved.

How's that for a house rule fix?

 

[Zhure]

That's an assumption, and the method doesn't work on a lot of the specific Armors or Weapons.

I prefer the term "extrapolation." Ignoring the other armors, the "celestial is a +4 enhancement" mechanic will be correct or overpriced for anything with a +1 or better armor, which they will have to be. If anything, it errs on the side of caution, so it's the figure I derived for use IMC. It could also be a "+24,000 gp" modifier, but that particular mechanic wasn't introduced at the time of the 3e DMG release (I don't believe), except in the case of specific materials, like mithril and adamantium. If it is a specific material, then +24,000 would more likely be correct.

Greg