Chacters that hate other characters

As an aside - People often confuse a god of war with a god of violence. To me (meaning, IMHO) a war god knows tactics. Knows foresight. Knows not to throw away a useful alliance when it isn't necessary. Knows that sometimes a "soldier" needs a bit of discipline, but that death is not the only way to dispense it.

I agree with this; thats how I see the God of War in my campaign. The God of Violence would be someone like Malar or Erythnul who just enjoys slaughter.

And even if you see the Dwarven God of War as just enjoying battle for the sake of battle, its almost a crime to kill off a hot-head Elf who might some day grow powerful and bitter enough to lead an Elven army against his sworn foe. ;-) Its like killing the Goose that lays the Golden Egg.
 

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Valid point - and in the current campaign, spot on.

However, in that particular campaign, the dwarves were somewhat different. The DM (it was his campaign world) viewed the dwarves as acting somewhat like Klingons.

That's right....Klingons.

The dwarves in this campaign world were obsessed with honor, would fight at the drop of a hat, were renowned for their warrior skills and feared because of it, loved their drinking and singing, and had a very black and white view of life. They believed in deeds not words and were obsessed with acquiring honor and the spoils of war. If you were not for them, you were against them.

The dwarven viewpoint of a down time to unwind was to engage in games of 'smashface' (where blows were traded sequentially by both 'players' and the blows could not be dodged or defended against as it was considered 'cheating' and cheating impinged upon one's honor) until one of the players was rendered unconcious. And the other 'games' were equally as brutal.

You get the idea. The dwarves were feared warriors, even more so since they neither asked for or gave quarter and they had a very regimented and brutal lifestyle.

So, in the context of that particular incident, look at it in this light.

Would have a Kllingon left the elf alive given what had happened? Very unlikely.
 

BlackMoria said:
Would have a Kllingon left the elf alive given what had happened? Very unlikely.

Actually a klingon might have left him alive. Remember, one of the greatest honors is to die "a warrior's death". If you beat him and leave him alive, that shows you are his superior, and don't judge him to be worthy of the honor of killing him.

What's better - killing him, or humiliating him? :D
 

Characters with personality conflicts are fine, so long as they take a... well, the best way to describe the approach is little boys who are good friends but who get overheated. They might insult each other, they might even throw punches, but when everything's cooled off they regain their sense of camraderie. And when an outsider threatens them, they band together do their all for each other. That kind of friendly rivalry is fine.

However, certain things are not OK. Unexpected assults are not fine. Harsh words are, but no setting random traps, stealing from other party members, or planning acute assults/violations. The worst I'd allow in good faith is a bare-handed punch, maybe a brawl, but nothing lethal. Adventurer types can be rough and do that kind of thing, but someone who proves dangerous or overly unpleasant to travel with won't be with a party for long.

Doing real damage to another PC is never OK, unless they draw a weapon first. That kind of thing is grounds for a stern warning at the very least. Mutilating, violating, or crippling the character's abilities "just for fun" should mark the player as ripe for expulsion. Some games where everyone agrees beforehand can handle this. Most can't.

And BlackMoria, I think you did the right thing. Bickering is fine, and if another PC brings it on, a punch might be. Giving him chances to back away also works, but if that kind of player needs to get into a pissing contest, backing off and giving him another chance to stick a knife in your back is unwise to say the least.
 

A game I played in centered around the conflict between two characters, a Ranger and a Rogue. The situation started with insults, then escalated to practical "jokes." At one point, my character thought he was poisoned, and then the situation erupted into violence. Fortunately, no one was killed, and later, after a large fight, the two of us respected each other. However, the character conflict made the game more interesting than otherwise, even if it did bog it down some.

As a DM, I'm okay with nearly any character action, other than out of character attempts to screw the other players; i.e, Player A, currently involved in an argument with player B, uses his character to get revenge against player B. This is unacceptable, because it isn't roleplaying.

Annoying characters who treat everyone with hostility are fine, as long as everyone understands it's just a game. The key is to separate In-game actions with Out-of-Game actions.
 

Conflict? What conflict?

I once played a half-orc cleric/assassin in a long term campaign. It was a core party of four and one of the PCs possessed the Hand of Vecna and another the Eye. We all got along just peachy! :rolleyes: I assassinated (planned and planned and planned) the higher level holder of the Hand. Somehow, he lived and I ended up in bondage to some demon or somesuch! Never got back to that campaign after that before we all started moving on and moving away. Pity, it was a blast! Had nothing to do with hate, had to do with power. All of us were willing to do to our companions whatever it took to gain that power as long as we didn't get caught,,,until it was too late! Delicious! :D

Generally, though, I don't like selfish parties or antagonistic characters. They are the exception (if done well) rather than the rule. An adventuring company usually forms to adventure as a company.
 

In response to the Dwarf-Elf fight: I have a simple rule for that szenario: If you make a new PC, either when joining our group or when switching PCs, then I expect that the new PC will be comaptible. If there is a paladin in the group no blackguard will get in (not that I would DM a campaign for evil PCs). If there is a mage hating barabarian in the group and that PC would not tolerate a mage, then no mage will join the group and so on. Personality conflicts are ok, anything that causes lethal conflict or even forces an establisched PC to be altered against the will of the player (to acommodate a new PC) is a big no-no.

If I had been the DM in that group I would have banned the bladesinger right away, or only let him enter with the understanding that it is not the dwarves place to change to save the party. Should it have come to the conflict anyway, then the dwarven war god would have intervened directly if needed - no way I would let an established PC get killed or removed by a new PC.
 

The role of the GM and character conflict...

Hearkening back to an earlier post regarding the BlackMoria situation: *if* the player of the elf *knew* about the culture of dwarves (unclear from BlackMoria's telling of the story), and *if* the player *knew*the personality quirks of the character BlackMoria was playing (far more likely), then the player was intentionally setting up a conflict. The GM's responsibility at that point *if* he'd wanted to avoid the conflict would have been to tell the player of the elf, "No, you can't play a dwarf-hater. I don't want the contention between you and the dwarf to become the focus of the party's dynamic."

Taking it a step further, it is rather clear from most of the subsequent posts that particular groups and individuals can go one way or another with regard to the type of character conflict that is acceptable within a gaming group and/or a campaign. These seem to range from the level of "comedic rivalry" to "burgeoning murder".

Players set up those kinds of inter-party conflicts only with the tacit permission of the GM. The GM is responsible for assisting the players in keeping the game fun and entertaining for *everyone.* Some GMs find high levels of conflict entertaining because they don't have to do a lot of work and it's like watching a TV show. Some groups don't mind high levels of conflict between characters because they switch out characters like clones in the Paranoia system. For campaigns of an epic scale, conflict between characters can render them the status of archetypes for the opposing polarities of the main source of conflict in the campaign proper. Conflicts *can* be used to further define character personalities, but I'm sure most will agree that the campaign isn't about defining character personalities alone.

Imagine a GM gathering a group of players together. What are the logical assumptions?

1) These players are going to create characters to play in a role-playing game.
2) The GM is responsible for what the characters perceive from the campaign world, so in effect, he's responsible for the campaign stories and plotlines in which the characters become involved.

At no time should anyone assume that players will automatically create characters that will, in character, get along unless the GM specifies that it is a condition of the campaign. Some might assume that it's a granted, but different styles of role-play don't automatically take it into consideration.

Now, from what I've read of the previous posts, most people game only with friends. Being friends assumes at least on the surface that each person shares something in common with the rest which results in a feeling of common affinity. It's only human to over time expand that feeling of common affinity to assuming that your friend shares more than maybe one thing in common with you, even though it's really never come out in conversation. In this case, all the players assume that each individual is aware of a certain etiquette of gaming, and that they all game for the same reasons, and get the same type of entertainment from gaming.

So Player A might assume that Players B, C, and D game the same way he does: creates a character that will 1) fill a niche in the party, 2) accept at face value any adventure thread that comes along, 3) will fulfill the "duties" required of the niche he has filled, i.e., cleric=medic, and 4) suborn the character concept to keep harmony in the group. This player enjoys the archetypes and conventions of DnD and is a solid team player.

In the meantime, Player B creates a character that might happen to fit a niche, but in game constantly questions any plotline thrown to the party by the GM in the interest of realistic portrayal of his character, doesn't feel obliged to fulfill any "duties" of his character profession "just because", (i.e., out of obligation to the conventions of gaming) , and feels that he is holding true to his character in an effort to get everyone else to play realistically and in character. From his viewpoint, the conventions of DnD are not what he is playing for, and he expects his friend Player A to accept that, not to mention the rest of the group.

Neither of these players are "bad" role-players. However, friends or not, their approaches will in fact create conflicts if *no one* in the group takes the time to outline the differences and potential conflicts inherent in their different styles to bring them to a compromise, if either or both are amenable.

It's also important to remember that while imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, most gamers nowadays don't jump into a RPG campaign intending to recreate the depth of genuine camaraderie found among Tolkien's literary characters in the Fellowship of the Ring (Lord of the Rings), where a player like Player B would thrive because his character would be given *reasons* to do the things expected of him in the adventuring party, like friendship, loyalty, trust, etc.

To reiterate what others have said on the board--It is important in the end that the GM take some measure of responsibility in heading off the conflicts with the potential to blow his game to smithereens, even if it is to vindicate different styles of play, or specify the limits to which conflicts can be taken.
 
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When I DM, I lay down ground rules describing acceptable behavior. Unless the "party" consists of pre-established friends, I don't expect them to become immediate chums. If one PC becomes odious to others, I don't particularly contrive matters so that they all get along. I don't believe in the sanctity of a "character concept" or the need for "party unity", but I do respect differences in opinion and try to listen when trouble is brewing. I try to make sure I understand the situation and the motivations before I do anything IC and OOC.

If I were playing in a group with a disagreeable character, I would make sure I understood the ground rules first before I lobbied for change in either the character or the player. Sometimes, you just need to walk away from a bad game.
 

It depends on the gaming style.

Some groups have characters that pretty much walk around with "PC" in flashing green over their head. Other groups don't. The first group tends to be more organized at the cost of group-dynamics roleplaying. The second group has more interesting group dynamics, but tends to not be as effective as a team unit. A good version of EITHER group will do both things well.

As a player, I wouldn't make a dwarf-hating elf in a world where dwarfs acted like that unless I was prepared for him to be a one-shot character. The elf had to be a hundred years old. He knew how dwarves acted. Starting a fight with one was his choice. And as a player, it was my choice to make the character who did that. I wouldn't be surprised at the player whose character killed my character -- and if it was in his character's style, I wouldn't be angry with him.

The dwarf was the existing character in the party. My new character should have been someone who could get along with all party members, provided I wanted it to be logical and reasonable for my guy to suddenly want to hang out with all these violent warriors and spellcasters.

Of course, I tend more toward the "Not having PC in the air over your head" style. Any character I make will have a logical reason for wanting to join up with an existing party.

This sounds like a more unfortunate version of the person who makes a character who is bored and disinterested and doesn't want to go into the dungeon and fight things. That's a perfectly legitimate character concept, but if the other four guys at the table have dungeon hackers and their characters existed before yours, your guy has no reason to join that group -- and in any kind of roleplaying game, he deserves to be left back at the inn.

Or, if he's a violently angry or selfish guy, he deserves to be killed, just as you'd kill an NPC who arrived and started a fight or betrayed the party.

Side note: Ow, my character can't take another hit? And he had more than 35 hit points left? That's not a selfish character. That's a lying player, or one who has no understanding of how hit points work. A character with HALF his hit points left should be described as having a few scratches, moving a little slower. A character with a quarter of his hit points left has one big injury or several small ones, and is limping, favoring one arm, or shaking his head, slightly dizzy. If that character had half his hit points left, he shouldn't have been described as looking like he was at death's door. That's a PLAYER problem, and one for which I have no tolerance at all. In my campaign, if I say, "I look at Gryff -- how does he look, healthwise?", Gryff's player either gives me a description or does the thumb-o-meter. If a CHARACTER said "I can't take another hit!" while he looked to be in better physical shape than the people staying and dying, my last action would be a flurry of magic missiles at the coward who left us to die.

-Tacky
 

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