Chain Spell Feat: Allow or Not?

[EOL]

One of my players want's to take the Chain Spell metamagic feat, since it's not in one of the core books it's not automatic. So I start looking at it and I see some possibility for abuse.

A chained Haste has the same basic result as mass Haste with a greater area of effect.

A chained Charm Person allows you to really charm a lot of people, at the same level you're getting Charm Monster.

Am I the only one scared by the idea of a chained Feeblemind, Polymorph Other, Blindness/Deafness or any other spell with a permanent effect?

What has been your experience with this feat, did you have to modify it, clarify it, or just plain disallow it?

 

[CRGreathouse]

I think it's an okay feat. There was some discussion about it a few days ago - if the search function was up, I'd post a link.

 

[EOL]

I think you may be referring to another question I posted about chain dispel magic. The first problem I had was with spells that didn't have saves or do damage, and thus couldn't be decreased in power on secondary targets. Now I'm widening my net as it were.

 

[Crothian]

Ya, the feat can be used to good effect, but the secondary targets are hardier to effect. No problem as I see it.

 

[zorlag]

zorlag

It's good feat for sorcerers and psions who can't afford to take mass this and mass that spells like wizards. Resulting metamagiced/psioned spell/power is not quite as effective as original mass spell/power, since damage is potentially halved (addional reflex save) and save is at -4 DC.

Z.

 

[EOL]

Re: zorlag

It's good feat for sorcerers and psions who can't afford to take mass this and mass that spells like wizards. Resulting metamagiced/psioned spell/power is not quite as effective as original mass spell/power, since damage is potentially halved (addional reflex save) and save is at -4 DC.

Z.

Yeah but as I pointed out that is not always the case. Chained Haste is more powerful than Mass Haste, it has a greater area of effect and because Mass Haste affects your level in people and Chained Haste affects your level of people +1. Chained Haste is more effective.

I don't think this means it's broken, I think more that it means it might need some tweaking or clarification. For example broaden the definition of half, perhaps since the save of Chained haste NEVER comes up you could halve the duration on secondary targets, or something like that.

 

[Eraslin]

My $0.02

Seeing as the person has to give up one of his/her few feats to gain that one extra target and the little bit of range, I personally don't see a problem with it. The secondary targets have easier saves to boot, weakening the spells a little bit more.
I've never actually used the feat, but I can see the uses -- if you want to use up 5th lvl spell slots to give your entire party bull's strength or cat's grace for a time.

-Eraslin

Hmm...

Although, a chained fireball could be just nasty if the enemies are clustered close enough together (10d6 primary blast + n 5d6 secondary blasts; with n being a minimum of 11)... That primary target could be in for a whole world of pain if he/she isn't a monk, a rogue, or immune to fire...
It would also be neat to use it with a summon monster spell... Summoning 12d3 (minimum) celestial eagles for a sixth lvl spell slot would be interesting to see. Or 18 large elementals for a 9th level slot.

Okay, so the feat has a lot of potential... I'm still not convinced it's overpowered though.

[EDIT: Okay, maybe being able to do 65d6 damage with a sixth level spell to a small area is a little bit extreme (assuming a whack of failed saving throws). Perhaps limit the spell to chaining non-area-of-effect spells...]

 

[Al]

The Chain Spell cannot be used for Haste, as I believe that the Chained Spell must have a range greater than touch. So not chained Harms either. Chain Spell is also of little use for area of effect spells: these would fare better under, say, Maximise (a good old Maximised fireball dealing 60hps can easily take down your wizardly opposite. Two can clear the decks of the clerics and three or four remove any class that doesn't have evasion)

When Chain Spell does come to the fore is mid-level single-target spells. Chained Feeblemind, Dominate Person, Polymorph Other and Flesh to Stone are all very nasty. Chained Enervation, which has no saving throw and hence offsets the major problem of Chain Spell (the DC change).

But on the whole, is Chain Spell really that powerful? Compare some of the Chained Spell with the spells of equivalent level. Chained Polymorph Other is nasty, but compared with Prismatic Spray they probably have similar offensive power (especially factoring in the save difference of 7 for the secondary targets.)

 

[Eraslin]

Al,
Haste has a range of "close", so it can be used with the chain spell feat.

-Eraslin

 

[EOL]

Re: My $0.02

Seeing as the person has to give up one of his/her few feats to gain that one extra target and the little bit of range, I personally don't see a problem with it. The secondary targets have easier saves to boot, weakening the spells a little bit more.
I've never actually used the feat, but I can see the uses -- if you want to use up 5th lvl spell slots to give your entire party bull's strength or cat's grace for a time.

-Eraslin

My personal philisophy is that spell with a meta-magic feat applied should never be more powerful than a spell of equal level. This is primarily a sorcerer issue, because it mitigates if not negates the disadvantage of the limited spell selection.

Also the Chain Spell feat cannot be used with Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace, since they have a range of touch.

Hmm...

Although, a chained fireball could be just nasty if the enemies are clustered close enough together (10d6 primary blast + n 5d6 secondary blasts; with n being a minimum of 11)... That primary target could be in for a whole world of pain if he/she isn't a monk, a rogue, or immune to fire...
It would also be neat to use it with a summon monster spell... Summoning 12d3 (minimum) celestial eagles for a sixth lvl spell slot would be interesting to see. Or 18 large elementals for a 9th level slot.

Okay, so the feat has a lot of potential... I'm still not convinced it's overpowered though.

[EDIT: Okay, maybe being able to do 65d6 damage with a sixth level spell to a small area is a little bit extreme (assuming a whack of failed saving throws). Perhaps limit the spell to chaining non-area-of-effect spells...]

Nor could it be used with fireball or any summon spells.

You can chain any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch

When Chain Spell does come to the fore is mid-level single-target spells. Chained Feeblemind, Dominate Person, Polymorph Other and Flesh to Stone are all very nasty. Chained Enervation, which has no saving throw and hence offsets the major problem of Chain Spell (the DC change).

Chained enervation is a great example of the possibility for abuse. Let's compare a Chained enervation with Energy Drain, the first a seventh level spell and the second a 9th level spell. Both cast by a 20th level caster. In the first case if we take the feat literally and figure an average of 2.5 levels per enevervate then we end up with 52.5 (2.5 *21) total levels drained with enervate and 5 levels drained with Energy Drain. Now I admit that the Drained Levels from Energy Drain are much nastier, but are they 10 TIMES as nasty? (and this ignores the level disparity)

Let's assume that drained levels count as damage and so the secondary targets only take 1d2 levels of drain(average 1.5), even in this case we have a 32.5 compared to 5 and this is a 7th level spell as compared to a 9th level spell.

Anybody see a problem with this?