Challenge! I want to convert your concept!

[Porphyrogenitus]

Decloaking to Ramble On - THE GREAT WALL OF TEXTICUS

Ok, this thread made me register & decloak, 'cause I'm pondering (taking over the world?) whether 4E is for me or not.

Here's my essential character concept:

Among the greatest arcane spellcasters of her era, with a versatile spell repertour, however not necessarily one focused on blowing stuff up, she is also expert with a rapier - as deadly with it as a knight of the equivalent level. Her skill with it is based more on intelligence and deftness (dex) than brute force. She does not wear armor but avoids blows through skill, misdirection (cha), and enchantments. She can slip through most areas unseen without setting off traps and gets passed locked and barred areas without notice. She is a master of persuasion and can inspire people to follow her [I hate the name "Warlord" but that's just flavour-text]. She has deep insight into lore and can gather a wide variety of information, through both mundane and divinatory means. Has a wide variety of interpersonal skills and deep knowledge of many subjects (history, politics, local lore - think 3E Loremaster combined with Info Gathering & Knowledge skillz)

I will tell you that when I have "converted" this character to computer games, I didn't bother with spellcasting because I.E. NWN/NWN2 didn't capture it (instead I used Rogue/Paladin/Swashbuckler/Monk in NWN2 - Swashbuckler being someone's mod/hak), because the computer conversion didn't/doesn't capture the essence of her spellcasting - in battle, she tends to use the blade over spells, with spells used in preparation (intel-gathering, buffs, &tc) and also for a lot of what would seem "background" uses - non-combat things, long-duration personal enchantments, illusions, critter construction, fortress-building, beguiling, follower-enhancing; but not simple "Bard Buff" stuff (thus a Bardish/Buffer conversion on computer would not be apt); she's a builder and an enhancer of the constructions she's built through magic, or simply acquired and then renovated with arcanegeneering. Abjurations and protective magics that neutralized what others cast at her (and her associates) were a key as well, along with spells that broke down the opponents defenses.

Used divinatory spells (such as Wizard Eye and its variants, among others) to pre-scout areas in advance and plan, thus prepare a proper spell selection before going into any area. Generally grew to prefer intrigues and maneuverings to advance her aims, which were long-range and wide-reaching, using combat selectively. She's not incapable of spells that blow stuff up, but they are generally "backdrop" for her, things she uses on "lesser included" opponents rather than challenging ones/her peers (they get the tongue or the blade-backed-by-enchantments&skill). Invariably goes into battle swaddled in spells that damage the opponent if they manage to hit her. Small in size, she intimidates through shear force of personality...and, eventually, reputation. So skilled at negotiation it is said she could sell snow to the frost giants of icereach and sand to a Calashite pasha. She is a Lord (Lady/Dame/whatever) Knight by status, rank, and title in her own land, and formerly elected Senator of its capital city (position resigned, has status Senator Emeritus). That's all "flavour text" but gives some insight into the character concept. Not a wandering minstrel or scavenger for spare coin in taverns, she's a person of learning and culture. Thus needs a good skill-set and good spell-set and keen expertise with the rapier so she can go, if not toe-to-toe with competative opponents, at least strike-and-dash (Spring Attack style. Oh, and she's fast...speed magically enhanced). Definately can teleport & fly and travel the planes (such as they are in 4E...*sigh*. Almost not worth going anymore, pity, really).

From what I gather, the 3E spell list now leans heavily towards combatives, and less so towards "utility" spells, especially summonings/bindings/ensorcelments/beguilements &tc that invoke aid or influence opponents (except perhaps short duration, which is relatively useless unless you only plan to bump into them in one encounter or bump them off in that encounter). In that sense, it seems it *has* swayed more towards the MMORPG than the PnP, the latter where NPCs might have more persistence and not be simpleminded computer bots (most DMs tend to be smarter than a 'bot...your mileage may vary, and perhaps MMORPG 'bot AI outwits you more than your DM's NPCs do, but I feel sad for you if that's the case. If it is, try the Turing Test on your DM. If he fails, look for another).

In OD&D this character was a Thyatian Forester (of Alphatian decent, from IoD), in 2E a dual-class Thief (Swashbuckler kit)/Wizard, after having reached L.15 in Rogue went on to Archmage status in Wizard (2nd class). 3.5E monstrosity build version is Rogue/Swashbuckler/Wizard/Eldritch Knight/Loremaster and an accumulation of feats and abilities that give wicked hit & damage to rapier and improvements to her AC.

I'm open to items producing some effects - after all that happens now - but some things are intrinsic to her and her skills (her spellcasting doesn't follow the Path of the Burnout, fumbling around with fetishes. I suppose her rapier would be an acceptable focus. Or her headdress perhaps, or gown. But not a walking stick or the like).

For those who haven't lost interest, a visual can be found here, a piece I commissioned of her, excellently executed by Shiramune (<-- a plug for his work; he's getting really good).

What she doesn't need (superfluous): skill with armor can be dispensed with. Skill with a wide variety of weapons is not needed - just a few, mainly rapier, rapier, rapier. Shortsword & short composite bow or hand cross bow & dagger possibly as well. But signature weapon definately rapier. But my point is knowledge of a wide variety of weapons is not needed. Always nice, but not essential to the character.

Interestingly, in her current 3.5E Monsterous Build Version, she's an excellent dancer and decent singer, but was never a Bard nor would that really fit the concept. Not-a-Bard. Perhaps a multiclass Wizard/Rogue or Wizard/"Warlord" (*retch at vulgarian name*) So another thing she isn't is "A Bard" - when it comes to spellcasting, they're hedge-wizards and dillitantes. Her knowledge of spellcasting is both deeper and broader, more versitile. Versitility is the best one-word description of her arcane side, excellence is the best one word description of her fighting side.

 

[theNater]

Here's my character from OD&D. This isn't most of it, but this is pretty much all of the personal stats, none of the item stats.

Not trying to stump anyone here, but I'd be interested in how it can be converted to 4E.


Father Benedict Selzkin
Male Human Curate (5th level cleric)
5' 11", 26 1/2 y.o., 185#, brown hair, brown eyes.
Symbols: Alpha, Omega, Circle.

Sounds like fun. Let's give it a shot. I'll put most of the stats together as a first level character, then mention the levels of the powers he'll be using.

Str: 12 (+50 coins carried w/o penalty)
Int: 11 (No bonus languages)
Wis: 15 (+10 XP bonus for all in class XP)
Con: 7 (40% system shock - used for diseases, resurrection, some poisons, etc.)
Dex: 8 (-1 missile attacks)
Cha: 13 (+1 reaction bonus, max 5 hirelings)

There's been some power creep, so your stats are going to be a bit higher. Using Standard array, we get...

Str: 13 (Can carry 130 pounds w/o penalty, compared to 100 pounds for a character with average strength)
Int: 12 (No bonus languages)
Wis: 16 (No experience bonus)
Con: 10 (+10 hp at first level)
Dex: 11 (+0 missile attacks)
Cha: 14 (+2 reaction bonus, no hirelings)

Humans get a +2 bonus to any stat of their choice, not included here. Eladrin may also be useful for this character, provinding a +2 int and +2 dex.

Saving throws:
Death Ray / Poison: 10
Magic Wand: 11
Turn to Stone / Paralysis: 13
Dragon Breath: 15
Spells or Magic Staff: 14

Defenses:
Fort(poison, paralysis, stone): 12
Reflex(wand, dragon breath, ray): 12
Will(spells, magic staff, charm): 16

HP: 20

HP: 22
Bloodied: 11
Healing surge: 5
Surges per Day: 7

AC: 4 (with armor - no dex penalty in OD&D)

I forget, is 4 a good armor class? I seem to recall not being real impressed with anything over 2.
AC: 16(with armor-no dex in heavy armor) Compare to 18 for plate armor.

Move: 9, Run 18

Speed: 5, Run 7. Those are measured in 5-foot squares, so we could write it as 25ft, Run 35ft.

Alignment: Lawful

Alignment: Lawful Good

Languages: Common, Lawful (alignment language), Special (unknown to party at the moment) - Plus literate in all of these in any phonetic construction I wish to use. Which would be only one, as I only know the one Common alphabet). I can interpret languages I can read in Common in other symbols / alphabets with time.

Languages: If human: Common, Special(unknown to party at the moment); if eladrin: Common, Elven. There are no alignment languages any more. Literate in both languages in their normal alphabet. Can interpret into other alphabets with time(I assume, rules not explicitly given). The Linguist feat, for which you qualify if you are an eladrin, can give you that special language and a couple others(assuming it's not elven, of course).

Flail: 1d8 sm+med, 1d8 Large
Sling: 1d4 sm+med, 1d4 Large
Mace of Disruption: 1d8 sm+med, 1d8 Large (no magic bonus I know of, good chance to disintegrate any Undead on a hit)

Flail: +3 vs. AC, 1d10+1 damage(Note: need the Weapon Proficiency feat to be proficient in flails)
Sling: +2 vs. AC, 1d6 damage

The Mace of Disruption is a little harder to model, as the ability to one-shot monsters is what minions are for. For normal, elite, and boss monsters, the ability to disintegrate one on a single hit is pretty extreme. However, you could do impressive things to undead by channeling a radiant power(to which most undead have a vulnerability) through a Symbol of Battle, using its daily power for an extra 1d10 damage. Note that Turn Undead is a radiant power channeled through an implement. They'd feel that. A mace with the Vicious Weapon enchantment might also have a noticable effect on undead(along with everything else) if you should happen to get a crit. It provides another 1d12 damage on top of the crit, 2d12 if you've got the +2 version(7th level item, not entirely unreasonable for a 5th level character). Use a radiant weapon power with that, and the undead won't be happy.

Class Abilities:
Turn Undead: rolls 2d6+character level (+5) (2d6HD) as a 1st level Cleric (2nd with ring on - see below)
Weapon proficiencies: All armor, shields, non-edged weapons.

Class Abilities:
Channel Divinity, including Turn Undead(Close burst 2, 1d10+3 radiant damage and push 5 squares).
Weapon proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail, simple melee, simple ranged. Your flail is a military weapon, you'll need that feat to use it properly.

Clerical spells: 2 slots at 1st level or 1 slot at 2nd. Only 1 1st level slot when not wearing ring of... I don't know. Psychic deflation?
1st level spells: List of 6 maximum, these are the standard for my order. Custom upon request and research and.. just a number of other factors.
1. Cure Light Wounds - 1d6+"character" level
2. Purify Food & Water - Enough for 1 person / "character" level
3. Detect Magic - Shows all sorts of pretty colors. Lasts about 1 hour
4. Detect Evil / Alignment - Shows all sorts of pretty colors. Lasts about 1 hour
5. Protection from Evil / Alignment - Has multiple weird effects. I'm still learning this one
6. Light - 24 hours? Can't recall off hand.

Some of these may be permanent. Honestly, most spells are permanent until dispelled.

Various spells; some at-will, some per-encounter, some per-day.
1. Healing Word - Target(within 5 squares) can spend a healing surge. Usually 4-9 at first level.
2. No need to purify food and water when you can create it with the 4th level ritual Travellers' Feast.
3. Arcana is a class skill. Training in Arcana permits the recognition and identification of magical effects.
4. The mechanical effects of alignment have largely been removed. However, training in Insight(a class skill) can help you identify when someone's goals are not in your best interest.
5. As 4, except use the at-will power Priest's Shield to protect your allies from all foes, not just evil ones.
6. Can be simulated with Holy Lantern(6). Lasts 10 hours, but you can refresh it before it expires, as often as you like.

Most spells in 4th edition last either for one round or until the end of the encounter. You will need to refresh Priest's Shield each round you wish the target to be protected, for example. And those effects simulated by skills are essentially permanent.

2nd level spells I haven't really explored so you can skip them.

Okay.

Psionics: 120 Power Points: (costs are per use) - Unusable when ring is on.

Psionics haven't been built into 4th edition yet, but we can get some psychic abilities by multiclassing into warlock.

Attack: 60 strength - Mind Crush, cost 20pp (destroys subject mind, chance for permanent damage)

The warlock abilities Eyebite(1) and Dreadful Word(1) are abilities you can pick up as per-encounter powers, if you get into two encounters a day you'll get to use them a total of four times, leaving you 40pp for:

Defense: 60 strength - Iron Will, cost 20pp (area effect that protects from psychic attacks, like AC)

I'd use Sanctuary(cleric 2) for this. It's a single target ability, but it makes the target highly resistant to all forms of attack, including psychic ones.

Telepathy: possible to any creature, but limited to the language I speak "in my head" (the ones I know)
Range: sound of my voice (though I don't really speak)
Cost: 0, but PP must be at 100 or more.

This is tricky, because the only power I know of that does this is the wizard's cantrip Ghost Sound. If it, by itself, is vital to the character you may wish to go for wizard/warlock(sacrificing healing) or wizard/cleric(sacrificing psychic combat). Note that the Hypnosis, which I will get to in a moment, can be done by a warlock, so if you just need this as a basis for that, you're still okay with cleric/warlock.

Levitation: self only
cost: 1pp / turn (10 minutes is a turn, so this can go on a long time. Ben levitates in his sleep too)

4th edition divides in-combat and out-of-combat magic pretty strongly. To be airborne for extended periods, the ritual Tenser's Floating Disk(1) can get you a short distance off the ground. It is not difficult to arrange for it to be able to hold 500 pounds at first level, so unless you're carrying a lot of gear, you should be able to curl up on it for the night. You can eventually get your Phantom Steed(6) to get yourself up to 50 feet of height. It requires a 40 on an Arcana check, which could become possible as early as level 18 with the setup I've got you running here(earlier if other characters are aiding you on the casting check). For short-term flight, the warlock power Shadow Form(10) gives you a fly speed of 6 squares for up to 5 minutes.

Hypnosis: May be used telepathically. Effects everyone who can hear me and understand my words. This is effectively similar to 3e's "Suggestion" spell, but persistent every round until save ends.
Cost: 1pp/ low level or normal intelligence creatures (6 max/rd)
6pp / even higher level or above normal intelligence creatures (3 max/rd)

We can get some solid effects with warlock powers. Many of them are precise in what they permit you to do, however. Curse of the Dark Dream(1) is the earliest avaliable, and it gives you a little control over how your foe moves. Beguiling Tongue(2) can give you a good bonus to Bluff, if you wish to plant an untrue idea into your opponent's mind, but as a utility power will be competing with Shadow Form for space. The most powerful of the warlock mind-control powers is Curse of the Dark Delirium(29), giving you total control of the target. You must make an attack with it every round, it persists until you miss.

Molecular Rearrangement: (self only)
Cost: 1pp/turn for like materials (20 hours)
2pp/round for similar materials (1 hour)
6pp/round for harder materials (20 min)
This one is harder to describe. I don't lose form, but can pass through keyholes if the form of air. I can only change into things I am touching so fire injures me to change into it. I like to change into a beam of light on occasion. I travel in a straight line Instantaneously until I run into an obstacle (like a moon for instance), next round I can spend 6pp more to change direction for more instantaneous travel. The change to light thing is awesome, but leaves me naked wherever I show up. I can change into healing potion too, but if I were "drank" less of me would change back (the parts not in someone's stomach) and I would take damage for that. Tons of other potentials I haven't mentioned and/or tried.

Many of your example abilities are teleports. Clerics can teleport themselves with Clarion Call of the Astral Sea(22), while warlocks have a handful of blast-and-port strikes like Otherwind Stride(3). The eladrin have a Fey Step racial power, which may also fill in for this use, and nothing says you can't be a human who just happens to have eladrin racial attributes.

Other uses will probably be reflavored abilities. Anything that allows a target to spend a healing surge(as many cleric abilities do) can be reflavored as you turning into a healing potion and getting drunk. The default flavor on Shadow Form turns you into a cloud of batlike shadows; we could pretend it's a gaseous form. Becoming a harder substance would likely increase your AC, as Priest's Shield does, and so on.

Power Point Recovery: (zero during combat)
6pp/hour talking, 12pp/hour resting quietly, 24pp/hour sleeping.

Encounter powers come back after a short(5 minute) rest(talking or resting quietly), daily powers come back after an extended(6 hour) rest(anywhere on the talking-sleeping spectrum, as long as you've slept 6 hours in the last 24).

Healing is per the normal rules: 1hp / night's rest. As the only quote/unquote "healer" in the group I don't use spells in combat for more than healing unless we have a plan for one or more of mine. Given the selection has no combat spells, that hasn't happened yet. Lots of spell use out of combat though.

Healing is per the normal rules: at the end of a short rest you may spend as many healing surges as you wish, and after an extended rest you recover all hit points and healing surges. Also, you can heal while using combat spells, 4th edition doesn't make it exclusively either/or. Spell use outside of combat usually entails rituals, and you can have as many of those as you can afford.

Encumbrance: 540 / 1080 /1620 / 1800 max coins (weight is given in coins - 10 coins to the pound) With Medium armor (9 speed, not 12) I can take 108 pounds of gear without any further slowing, but my armor counts towards that total.

Encumbrance: 130(normal)/260(heavy)/650(max drag). You can carry 130 pounds of gear without penalty, your armor(chainmail) is 40 pounds of that.

Most of the character is stuff about the campaign and a sizable equipment list (at church, with me at the moment, stored with so and so, etc.) I left these out as the best stuff we have is really cool in the way Molecular Rearrangement is cool. We can use the stuff for months and still not know everything it can do. Plus, I don't expect magic item write ups as most of the ones we use are group owned, shared, or stored for later trading or use.

There are more limits on the powers of magic items than there used to be. However, most classes have access to more powers as class powers, so it kind of evens out.

Note that I've worked this reply under the assumption that healing and destroying undead take priority over psychic powers, and that your character will be a cleric/warlock. Things change a bit if the psychic powers take priority, making warlock/cleric a better call.

 

[Bold or Stupid]

Ok, this thread made me register & decloak, 'cause I'm pondering (taking over the world?) whether 4E is for me or not.
[sblock]
Here's my essential character concept:

Among the greatest arcane spellcasters of her era, with a versatile spell repertour, however not necessarily one focused on blowing stuff up, she is also expert with a rapier - as deadly with it as a knight of the equivalent level. Her skill with it is based more on intelligence and deftness (dex) than brute force. She does not wear armor but avoids blows through skill, misdirection (cha), and enchantments. She can slip through most areas unseen without setting off traps and gets passed locked and barred areas without notice. She is a master of persuasion and can inspire people to follow her [I hate the name "Warlord" but that's just flavour-text]. She has deep insight into lore and can gather a wide variety of information, through both mundane and divinatory means. Has a wide variety of interpersonal skills and deep knowledge of many subjects (history, politics, local lore - think 3E Loremaster combined with Info Gathering & Knowledge skillz)

I will tell you that when I have "converted" this character to computer games, I didn't bother with spellcasting because I.E. NWN/NWN2 didn't capture it (instead I used Rogue/Paladin/Swashbuckler/Monk in NWN2 - Swashbuckler being someone's mod/hak), because the computer conversion didn't/doesn't capture the essence of her spellcasting - in battle, she tends to use the blade over spells, with spells used in preparation (intel-gathering, buffs, &tc) and also for a lot of what would seem "background" uses - non-combat things, long-duration personal enchantments, illusions, critter construction, fortress-building, beguiling, follower-enhancing; but not simple "Bard Buff" stuff (thus a Bardish/Buffer conversion on computer would not be apt); she's a builder and an enhancer of the constructions she's built through magic, or simply acquired and then renovated with arcanegeneering. Abjurations and protective magics that neutralized what others cast at her (and her associates) were a key as well, along with spells that broke down the opponents defenses.

Used divinatory spells (such as Wizard Eye and its variants, among others) to pre-scout areas in advance and plan, thus prepare a proper spell selection before going into any area. Generally grew to prefer intrigues and maneuverings to advance her aims, which were long-range and wide-reaching, using combat selectively. She's not incapable of spells that blow stuff up, but they are generally "backdrop" for her, things she uses on "lesser included" opponents rather than challenging ones/her peers (they get the tongue or the blade-backed-by-enchantments&skill). Invariably goes into battle swaddled in spells that damage the opponent if they manage to hit her. Small in size, she intimidates through shear force of personality...and, eventually, reputation. So skilled at negotiation it is said she could sell snow to the frost giants of icereach and sand to a Calashite pasha. She is a Lord (Lady/Dame/whatever) Knight by status, rank, and title in her own land, and formerly elected Senator of its capital city (position resigned, has status Senator Emeritus). That's all "flavour text" but gives some insight into the character concept. Not a wandering minstrel or scavenger for spare coin in taverns, she's a person of learning and culture. Thus needs a good skill-set and good spell-set and keen expertise with the rapier so she can go, if not toe-to-toe with competative opponents, at least strike-and-dash (Spring Attack style. Oh, and she's fast...speed magically enhanced). Definately can teleport & fly and travel the planes (such as they are in 4E...*sigh*. Almost not worth going anymore, pity, really).

From what I gather, the 3E spell list now leans heavily towards combatives, and less so towards "utility" spells, especially summonings/bindings/ensorcelments/beguilements &tc that invoke aid or influence opponents (except perhaps short duration, which is relatively useless unless you only plan to bump into them in one encounter or bump them off in that encounter). In that sense, it seems it *has* swayed more towards the MMORPG than the PnP, the latter where NPCs might have more persistence and not be simpleminded computer bots (most DMs tend to be smarter than a 'bot...your mileage may vary, and perhaps MMORPG 'bot AI outwits you more than your DM's NPCs do, but I feel sad for you if that's the case. If it is, try the Turing Test on your DM. If he fails, look for another).

In OD&D this character was a Thyatian Forester (of Alphatian decent, from IoD), in 2E a dual-class Thief (Swashbuckler kit)/Wizard, after having reached L.15 in Rogue went on to Archmage status in Wizard (2nd class). 3.5E monstrosity build version is Rogue/Swashbuckler/Wizard/Eldritch Knight/Loremaster and an accumulation of feats and abilities that give wicked hit & damage to rapier and improvements to her AC.

I'm open to items producing some effects - after all that happens now - but some things are intrinsic to her and her skills (her spellcasting doesn't follow the Path of the Burnout, fumbling around with fetishes. I suppose her rapier would be an acceptable focus. Or her headdress perhaps, or gown. But not a walking stick or the like).

For those who haven't lost interest, a visual can be found here, a piece I commissioned of her, excellently executed by Shiramune (<-- a plug for his work; he's getting really good).

What she doesn't need (superfluous): skill with armor can be dispensed with. Skill with a wide variety of weapons is not needed - just a few, mainly rapier, rapier, rapier. Shortsword & short composite bow or hand cross bow & dagger possibly as well. But signature weapon definately rapier. But my point is knowledge of a wide variety of weapons is not needed. Always nice, but not essential to the character.

Interestingly, in her current 3.5E Monsterous Build Version, she's an excellent dancer and decent singer, but was never a Bard nor would that really fit the concept. Not-a-Bard. Perhaps a multiclass Wizard/Rogue or Wizard/"Warlord" (*retch at vulgarian name*) So another thing she isn't is "A Bard" - when it comes to spellcasting, they're hedge-wizards and dillitantes. Her knowledge of spellcasting is both deeper and broader, more versitile. Versitility is the best one-word description of her arcane side, excellence is the best one word description of her fighting side.[/sblock]

This one is fairly easy. Human Rogue, starting feats are Rapier Prof, and Arcane Initiate. Feat at 2nd level is Ritual Skill. That covers youre requiremnets nicely as Rogue's swashbukle well in 4th ed. On the dancing skills front just clear it with the ref that it's part of her BG.

 

[theNater]

Ok, this thread made me register & decloak, 'cause I'm pondering (taking over the world?) whether 4E is for me or not.

Glad I could drag you into discussion!

Among the greatest arcane spellcasters of her era, with a versatile spell repertour, however not necessarily one focused on blowing stuff up, she is also expert with a rapier - as deadly with it as a knight of the equivalent level. Her skill with it is based more on intelligence and deftness (dex) than brute force. She does not wear armor but avoids blows through skill, misdirection (cha), and enchantments. She can slip through most areas unseen without setting off traps and gets passed locked and barred areas without notice. She is a master of persuasion and can inspire people to follow her [I hate the name "Warlord" but that's just flavour-text]. She has deep insight into lore and can gather a wide variety of information, through both mundane and divinatory means. Has a wide variety of interpersonal skills and deep knowledge of many subjects (history, politics, local lore - think 3E Loremaster combined with Info Gathering & Knowledge skillz)

So what I'm reading as the important parts are:

1. Know lots of stuff.
2. Be able to aquire more knowledge through mundane means.
3. Be able to get by obstacles through stealth and skill, rather than violence.
4. Have lots of spell effects.
5. Be able to aquire more knowledge through magical means.
6. Wield a rapier with deadly skill.
7. Be light enough on your feet to avoid most blows.
8. Be able to exhort troops to greater valor.

1-3 are covered by skills. There are five knowledge skills(Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Nature, Religion), five social skills(Bluff, Diplomacy, Insight, Intimidate, and Streetwise), and three relevant obstacle-beating skills(Stealth, Perception, and Thievery). You'll want to pick and choose what is most relevant, but with the wide range of skills you want, most classes will provide a full selection of them as class skills. A character can begin with 3-7 trained skills, depending on class and race. You'll need to pick up the others you want with the Skill Training feat, which will take a while if you want all 13 of those skills. If you trim it down(character seems urban, maybe Dungeoneering and Nature can go, for example) you can be doing most of what you want very quickly.

4&5 live largely in the realm of rituals. That's another feat for Ritual Caster, then you can just start shelling out the cash for the ritual books.

6 starts with the Weapon Proficiency feat, as no class is proficient in the rapier by default. To use it with your speed and charm, you need weapon powers based off of dex and cha. That's rogue or paladin.

7 means good AC and reflex defense. Rogues do this by high dex and class bonus; paladins do it with heavy armor and shields, which can be reflavored(you are slow because the formalized fencing moves that keep you safe reduce your overall speed, your off-hand is behind you giving you balance assistance).

8 is leader abilities. Clerics and warlords get lots of them, paladins get a few, like Wrath of the Gods(6). If you're taking rogue, I'd recommend multiclassing into cleric for this; it provides training in Religion, which is one of the possible prerequisites for Ritual Caster, and a skill you probably want anyway. If you're taking paladin, you can save your multiclassing for another class, which can provide other spell effects you want.

Used divinatory spells (such as Wizard Eye and its variants, among others) to pre-scout areas in advance and plan, thus prepare a proper spell selection before going into any area.

Only characters who are primarily wizards have to make daily spell selections. Everyone else has all of the spells/abilities they know available every day.

Generally grew to prefer intrigues and maneuverings to advance her aims, which were long-range and wide-reaching, using combat selectively.

Diplomacy and Bluff are great for the social skill challenges suggested by this approach.

She's not incapable of spells that blow stuff up, but they are generally "backdrop" for her, things she uses on "lesser included" opponents rather than challenging ones/her peers (they get the tongue or the blade-backed-by-enchantments&skill).

Paladins and clerics both have access to a few blasts, so you're good with either approach here.

Invariably goes into battle swaddled in spells that damage the opponent if they manage to hit her.

I don't know any abilities offhand that damage targets that strike you, but paladins and clerics have the ability to create zones(often as side effects of their blasts) which damage enemies in them; you can damage enemies fighting you by staying in the zone. If you've taken the paladin option, you can multiclass into warlock for Armor of Agathys(1) which damages enemies starting their turn near you.

Small in size, she intimidates through shear force of personality...and, eventually, reputation. So skilled at negotiation it is said she could sell snow to the frost giants of icereach and sand to a Calashite pasha. She is a Lord (Lady/Dame/whatever) Knight by status, rank, and title in her own land, and formerly elected Senator of its capital city (position resigned, has status Senator Emeritus). That's all "flavour text" but gives some insight into the character concept.

High Intimidate and Diplomacy skills should have you covered here.

Not a wandering minstrel or scavenger for spare coin in taverns, she's a person of learning and culture. Thus needs a good skill-set and good spell-set and keen expertise with the rapier so she can go, if not toe-to-toe with competative opponents, at least strike-and-dash (Spring Attack style. Oh, and she's fast...speed magically enhanced).

The rogue/cleric build has good strike-and-dash, the paladin is better at toe-to-toe. Boots of Striding and the paragon feat Fleet Footed can increase your speed by 1 each.

Definately can teleport & fly and travel the planes (such as they are in 4E...*sigh*. Almost not worth going anymore, pity, really).

For short range, the paladin/warlock gets a handful of fly/teleport abilities. Long range and interplanar are managed by rituals.

From what I gather, the 3E spell list now leans heavily towards combatives, and less so towards "utility" spells, especially summonings/bindings/ensorcelments/beguilements &tc that invoke aid or influence opponents (except perhaps short duration, which is relatively useless unless you only plan to bump into them in one encounter or bump them off in that encounter). In that sense, it seems it *has* swayed more towards the MMORPG than the PnP, the latter where NPCs might have more persistence and not be simpleminded computer bots (most DMs tend to be smarter than a 'bot...your mileage may vary, and perhaps MMORPG 'bot AI outwits you more than your DM's NPCs do, but I feel sad for you if that's the case. If it is, try the Turing Test on your DM. If he fails, look for another).

The 4th edition spell list has been strongly split so that combat spells and non-combat spells aren't competing for space on your list of spells known. Non-combat spells are mostly rituals, while spells that have some minor effects in combat are mostly utility powers, as distinct from attack powers.

There is an assumption that most of the creatures you meet in combat will be deceased by the end of the combat, so using an attack power for a permanent effect seems kind of pointless. Non-combat influence is generally a result of skill usage, rather than a single casting of a single spell. There are some utility powers that give bonuses to appropriate skills, however(Astral Speech(paladin 2) gives a +4 to diplomacy for one conversation, Master of Deceit(rogue 2) permits you to reroll one bluff check per encounter, etc.).

 

[Porphyrogenitus]

This one is fairly easy. Human Rogue, starting feats are Rapier Prof, and Arcane Initiate. Feat at 2nd level is Ritual Skill. That covers youre requiremnets nicely as Rogue's swashbukle well in 4th ed. On the dancing skills front just clear it with the ref that it's part of her BG.

Despite my "Great Wall of Text" I prolly failed to accurately describe - possibly because of the "Great Wall of Text" was more confusing than descriptive. Not that you're off-base, but prolly inverted. That would be good if the sole purpose was combat/melee. But in the larger sense she's not someone who dabbles in magic, but someone who has a mastery of a wide array of spells.

I'm not trying to nitpick 4E but I will admit my initial impression of the system wasn't positive; but then I didn't have an initially positive impression of 3E...or 3.5E. But ended up liking them. So I might like 4E, I'm not just here to be one of the nitpickers.

One of my impressions is that they "solved" the problem of "some spells aren't as useful as others" (the "Fireball vs. Phanton Steed" contrast) mainly by radically narrowing the options. Also everything in design is a tradeoff, I understand that: THe "Vancian" (AKA "D&D") spellcating system was much derided, which is prolly why they tossed it, but one thing it did well was allow (even encourage) variety & versatility: If you didn't know a spell that did what you wanted, you could research it.

While every spellcaster had their "go-to spells", puissant spellcasters with a depth of knowledge and extensive spellbook library could have a very different spell selection this week than they had last week.

That probably more accurately conveys what I'm trying to describe: She doesn't dabble in a bit of magic on the side, she has access to a wide range of spells and if she doesn't know one that does what she wants, will research it.

Glad I could drag you into discussion!

Bwahahahaha!

So what I'm reading as the important parts are:

1. Know lots of stuff.
2. Be able to aquire more knowledge through mundane means.
3. Be able to get by obstacles through stealth and skill, rather than violence.
4. Have lots of spell effects.
5. Be able to aquire more knowledge through magical means.
6. Wield a rapier with deadly skill.
7. Be light enough on your feet to avoid most blows.
8. Be able to exhort troops to greater valor.

That's a good summary.

1-3 are covered by skills. There are five knowledge skills(Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Nature, Religion), five social skills(Bluff, Diplomacy, Insight, Intimidate, and Streetwise), and three relevant obstacle-beating skills(Stealth, Perception, and Thievery). You'll want to pick and choose what is most relevant, but with the wide range of skills you want, most classes will provide a full selection of them as class skills. A character can begin with 3-7 trained skills, depending on class and race.

That's pretty good. One of the things another poster was getting at, I think, was that in 3E you really couldn't have a "skilled fighter" - or even a "skilled mage" (yes, because skill points were INT based, a wizad had more than the typical fighter...but also "had" to spend many of them on three "must-know" skills: Concentration, Arcana, and Spellcraft) - the only way to model an "Expert Fighter" was multiclassing with a bit of Rogue...which doesn't suck, but also isn't what everyone wanted. (that said, AD&D & 2E, no one had "skills" anyhow and it didn't bother us - but when there is a skill now that is used to do thus-and-such, it's harder to handwave it and say one's fighter is as good at x as the rogue who has maxed out their skillpoints in x, while under the old system everyone just handwaved). Anyhow I'm babbling again but I hope that 4E permits more classes to have, if not as many skills as a rogue, at least more than they did.

You'll need to pick up the others you want with the Skill Training feat, which will take a while if you want all 13 of those skills. If you trim it down(character seems urban, maybe Dungeoneering and Nature can go, for example) you can be doing most of what you want very quickly.

Yeah, her skill-set is more urban than wilderness; not that she doesn't go out there, but you're very right about the skill-focus.

4&5 live largely in the realm of rituals. That's another feat for Ritual Caster, then you can just start shelling out the cash for the ritual books.

Ok, kewl - I admit not knowing much about 4E Rituals, but that's sounding good.

6 starts with the Weapon Proficiency feat, as no class is proficient in the rapier by default. To use it with your speed and charm, you need weapon powers based off of dex and cha. That's rogue or paladin.

No class being proficient in the rapier by default sounds like a step back. But not a crippling one. I'd probably plead with the DM to allow a bit of PHII-type "retraining", swap out some weapon profs she's not likely to have for that. Otherwise yea, go that route.

7 means good AC and reflex defense. Rogues do this by high dex and class bonus; paladins do it with heavy armor and shields, which can be reflavored(you are slow because the formalized fencing moves that keep you safe reduce your overall speed, your off-hand is behind you giving you balance assistance).

Slow is right-out. "Reflavoring" the off-hand is ok; other than computer games, dual-wielding is right-out for this charactcer ever since it became a "Drizzit-Clone" thing (which is also why I never bonded to 3E Rangers - just because of Drizzit, now Rangers are all suposededly dual-wieldiers? Don't Think So...but I digress).

Slow really goes against the character's flavour, though.

8 is leader abilities. Clerics and warlords get lots of them, paladins get a few, like Wrath of the Gods(6). If you're taking rogue, I'd recommend multiclassing into cleric for this; it provides training in Religion, which is one of the possible prerequisites for Ritual Caster, and a skill you probably want anyway. If you're taking paladin, you can save your multiclassing for another class, which can provide other spell effects you want.

Only problem with that is her spellcasting has never been based on an external source - not even FRish "Arcane Spellcasters are Priests with a different spell-set, who get their Spells from Mystra, who can withdraw their ability to cast at any time, even though she - like other dieties with their Priests - rarely does so." I suppose that could be reconned as "inner faith" (the character has a saying: I'm not a pillar of the church, I'm a buttress supporting it from the outside" - she's not faithless, but for personal reasons doesn't rely on outside sources of power; thus pacts would also be out, from a flavour standpoint.

Only characters who are primarily wizards have to make daily spell selections. Everyone else has all of the spells/abilities they know available every day.

*IF* she were 4E spellcaster, then she'd be primarily a Wizard, then: dabbling in a handful of spells isn't "what this character does". WOuld the concept work as "primary Wizard, multi-Rogue" or "primary Wizard, multi-Warlord"?

In 2E and 3/3.5E one could start a character as (for example) a Rogue and then cross over to Wizard and ultimately outstrip the Rogue base to be primarily a Wizard (2E Dual-Classing was really all about eventually becoming better at the 2nd class than the original class); my understanding is 4E isn't like that - your initial choice is always predominant, and whatever you multi to is secondary, a bit of dabbling. (I say that not to nitpick the design, but to be corrected if I'm wrong).

*If* that's right, then in 4E a conversion of the character that included the spellcasting aspects would have to start in the spellcasting class and make it the primary one if she was to achieve excellence in it, and then multi in another. Unless characters of any class can master a wide variety of Rituals.

Diplomacy and Bluff are great for the social skill challenges suggested by this approach....High Intimidate and Diplomacy skills should have you covered here.

Yeah. Those sound like pretty much direct conversions.

Paladins and clerics both have access to a few blasts, so you're good with either approach here.

I don't know any abilities offhand that damage targets that strike you,

So no more Fire Shield or Acid Sheath and the like.

but paladins and clerics have the ability to create zones(often as side effects of their blasts) which damage enemies in them; you can damage enemies fighting you by staying in the zone.

Not bad. Mobility-limiting for this character, which cuts against the grain, but not a bad idea. However at least in past editions such effects usually left a lot to be desired.

If you've taken the paladin option, you can multiclass into warlock for Armor of Agathys(1) which damages enemies starting their turn near you.

The rogue/cleric build has good strike-and-dash, the paladin is better at toe-to-toe. Boots of Striding and the paragon feat Fleet Footed can increase your speed by 1 each.

For short range, the paladin/warlock gets a handful of fly/teleport abilities. Long range and interplanar are managed by rituals.

Ok.

The 4th edition spell list has been strongly split so that combat spells and non-combat spells aren't competing for space on your list of spells known. Non-combat spells are mostly rituals, while spells that have some minor effects in combat are mostly utility powers, as distinct from attack powers.

I prolly need to learn more about Rituals. Question that comes to mind is whether there is anything akin to "Spell Research" that lets one learn or invent new ones, other than "When you go up a level you can select x Feats and say you researched them" - I mean spell research in the sense of previous editions, not just "you get two new spells every time you go up a level, representing what you researched/learned while training".

There is an assumption that most of the creatures you meet in combat will be deceased by the end of the combat, so using an attack power for a permanent effect seems kind of pointless.

While that's always been mostly true, the exceptions have always been what makes/made the PnP versions interesting. That's also, to go off-topic a bit, why when I learned they were (further) limiting the things X,Y,Z "monsters" could do, trimming down their abilities so the DM could handle them better for one combat encounter, made me a Saaaad Panda: It's not necessarily the sole (or even best) Plot Use of a Pit Fiend or a Lich to be in a 40 x 40 room waiting to fight the PCs with a few efficient, deadly combat abilities. "Stripping them down to their essentials for ease of use" has it's upside, but, well, everything is a tradeoff...

Oh, and I think Szass Tam will/would be a S(l)aaad Panda if he can no longer create legions of undead. But again I digress.

Non-combat influence is generally a result of skill usage, rather than a single casting of a single spell.

I can live with that, generally.

There are some utility powers that give bonuses to appropriate skills, however(Astral Speech(paladin 2) gives a +4 to diplomacy for one conversation, Master of Deceit(rogue 2) permits you to reroll one bluff check per encounter, etc.).

Ok, I hope my questions/points above aren't annoying. I really am *not* trying to nitpick the system so much as use this as an opportunity to see if it can do many of the things I'm used to having characters (including NPCs) do well, without constant resort to handwaves.

Though, yeah, as more than one poster pointed out: Handwaves *is* Old-School, pre-3E D&D for a lot of situations, and I didn't dislike those editions.

 

[Porphyrogenitus]

I like this point from another thread, btw:

Also within those permutations, there is a massive disparity between spellcasters and non-spellcasters. A fighter or rogue has far fewer viable permutations in 3e than clerics, druids, or wizards. Why? Because there are more spells than feats, those spells tended to grow in power over the life of the edition, and those three classes could learn every new spell of their class that appeared.

I've been one of the critics of that tendency in every edition, myself - naturally the spell list grows over time and ultimately wizards (and to a lesser included degree, Clerics) outstrip other classes in powerful options.

So looking at my above post again (rather than re-editing it), I've fallen victim to that, myself, because it's an easy crutch to reach for a spell to solve every problem.

Reading this thread more closely, btw, I think perhaps there are a range of character design options that weren't available or viable straight-out-of-the-box in previous editions. It's just they're ones we're not all familiar with as D&D.

The above said as a possible concession to the edition's virtues over the past's vices, I do hope that at least "Ritual Research" if not "Spell Research" is available, and wonder some at the availability of non-combat arcane (be they spell or ritual) options. Perhaps - dk, I'm asking - those are produced in game mechanics other than the familiar "spell", by skill or feat with the right "flavour text mindset"?

I notice that, like me, a lot of the peeps who are having trouble getting just the right character concept translated are ones with arcane spellcaster builds from previous editions. IMO, that's probably better for the game as a whole but also no doubt will be affected over time, as the D&D designers like producing arcane-spellcaster-oriented-accessories just as much as we like to use them. But hopefully all classes will still shine at all levels.

I also like this:

In 4e, while there are fewer options, it's also harder to cripple yourself by making a wrong choice. And a wrong choice can be fixed with retraining. With 4e, I can make a social character who doesn't suck in a fight.

"Social" is a big deal for the concept I have in mind, but also not sucking.
_________________________________
Am still interested in a 4E Build that as much as possible models the character I described.

 

[gnfnrf]

What about my character? Are you going to conveniantly ignore those that you would otherwise fail to convert effectively?

Let me make it easier for you: He's an evil wizard with superhuman intelligence who plots world domination via dark supernatural magic and minions. He is the archatypical villain who sits in his dark tower waiting for the heroes to drop by so they can be vanquished and he can laugh manically. If 4E can't fullfill this archetype, I worry about the game.

4th edition can't do this concept as a PC very well without some houseruling (it works fine as a monster). But then, neither could 3rd Edition. The 3.5 PHB p. 104 disallows evil PCs entirely. Surely it's not fair to present a concept only possible with houserules in one edition, and expect it to work RAW in another edition?

--
gnfnrf

 

[Baron Opal]

I'd like to run a S&S game styled after Clark Ashton Smith, thank you very much. And I would have no expectation that the PCs would be good or ethical (they would be free to do as they pleased).

A Zothique style game would be awesome. Right at the moment, you'll have to make something up to casually animate dead. Designing a ritual is probably your best bet as well as referencing the clerical summons prayers.

I imagine the undead sourcebook will have the necromancer in it as well as wizard, cleric and warlock options. It's not that 4e can't, it's that it isn't supported yet. It will be.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

One of my PCs, as the OP knows from another thread, is a warrior (pure, single classed fighter specialized in Longsword) who for campaign reasons became a cleric in service to Tyr. The key clerical ability for the last half of her life has been the ability to Turn Undead- she is the party's sole source of that ability.

This venerable PC (dating back to 1Ed, updated all the way to 3.X) can't be done in 4Ed without radically altering the PCs history and/or classes since the Clerical multiclassing feats don't grant Channel Divine- a neccessity for Turning Undead. CD is only available to single classed Clerics or Paladins.

 

[Primal]

Not necessarily...

In 4E, the DM could just as easily say, "Skill Challenge time! To sneak past the guards using your ninja magic, first make an Arcana check. If it succeeds, you then can make Stealth checks against their Will defense, instead of their passive Perception to represent your ninja magic. There are six guards, between here and the Lord's bed chambers, so you'll need 6 successes get there without begin noticed. 3 failures means the entire castle is alerted."

Done.

A lot of these conversion suggestions seem to indicate that most of concepts need houseruling, re-flavouring and DM "judgement calls" -- I don't think that's what the posters are looking after. IMO they want to know if there are mechanics in place that let them create those characters without extra work or not.