Challenging my high-lvl group (NPCs and monsters; my players shouldn't read this!)

Piratecat said:
I'm also considering a "celestial" faction...
This is what I was going to suggest, because a group of fallen angels would make for an interesting counterpoint in philosophy. The fallen angels would represent the way in which "the ends justify the means" can lead to evil. Ruled by an ex-Solar who is determined to take control of Creation and fashion the ultimate paradise...at any cost.

It would also allow you to play with all the good celestials and celestial creatures in the monster manual...as villains. :]
 

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Lord Pendragon said:
This is what I was going to suggest, because a group of fallen angels would make for an interesting counterpoint in philosophy. The fallen angels would represent the way in which "the ends justify the means" can lead to evil. Ruled by an ex-Solar who is determined to take control of Creation and fashion the ultimate paradise...at any cost.

It would also allow you to play with all the good celestials and celestial creatures in the monster manual...as villains. :]
I did something like this in my campaign; a rogue group of celestials that just go too far for anyone "dealing" with devils. They would try to slaughter anyone caught speaking with anything devilish. Gave my PCs quite a scare.
 

I really like Zaruthustran's idea. I'd start mixing in known threats to give it a little definition. That would seem to be something Titivilious would be involved in, perhaps he originally tempted that fallen solar (who brought buddies down with him). Then again, he could be the infernal solar in question.

Regardless, the Good Celestials, may encountered while fighting either the flies or insect groups (perhaps both). This would be something they do often, considering it their mission in life to overcome these agents of Pestilence and Famine(?) before they can spread across the Prime, helping to bring about Armageddon. They believe in two ideals:



  1. As Zaruthustran, they believe themselves to be the epitomy of Goodness and see their master(s) as the source of such radiance. But they're fanatical about it. They won't question their belief system, ever, despite what it may ask of them. On the far side of the Law/Chaos axes, they stick to their own personal cursade in life. They don't get involved in other's battles, even at no risk to themselves. The young woman being dragged into an ally, the politics of this or that city, or the rise of an undead legion are simply not their concern, regardless of the personal risk (or lack there-of) involved.
  2. Death has already arrived on the Prime. There's no use fighting against it. Such a fight would only bring about more Death. As such, fighting Famine and Pestilance will have to serve to hold back the end of time. The same with War.
Behind it all, of course, are the Liars. Those Courtiers of Perdition, raised up by Asmodious Himself, for the sole purpose of taking control of the Prime. This group, while always waring with itself to some extent, holds great sway over the other three, who unknowingly follow the Liars' plans.

Each miner group believes they have a grand destiny, handed to them by Fate itself. Indeed, they do, though Fate has little to do with it. It's merely not the destiny they envision. The Lords of the Nine seek to send the Flies and Insects across the Prime, bringing War and Death to all the great nations and churchs. It's their goal not to scour the Prime, but to weaken it enough to allow for a true invasion from the Nine Hells.

Thus the involvment of the third group; those who think themselves saviours. It's their role to act as a counter to Famine and Pesilance, keeping them gaining enough strength to truely crush the mortal realm. In addition, when such a War finally takes place, the Celestial group will appear to be handling the situation. Thus, the Lords hope, the Upper Planes will not see it necisary to get directly involved.

Naturally, such a balance isn't easy to maintain. There are constantly necessary adjustments being made to all sides. A tip-off to one group, a trap set off on another, or, rarely, wiping out an entire base/hive/colony.

The Liars, of course, never want to reveal themselves. Instead they tend to act through intermediaries. Unwitting intermediaries with a penchent for meddling, a reputation for success, and a willingness to move on after they think they've succeeded.

Thus, the Defenders of Daybreak are a perfect choice.
 
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Another thought (hey, you didn't limit us to one each :D ), maybe a bit harder to work out : the evil of lawfullness. Strict adherance to the rules and laws. All of 'em. Will be very hard on the palladins.
Example : Anyone caught thieving will lose the thieving hand. Very common. But what if a hungry 3-year old steals a loaf of bread and gets caught. According to the law, the kiddie will lose his hand....
This could be a ploy of a group of devils, working behind the scenes, and slowly twisting the laws, making 'em more and more oppressive. This could lead to extremes. And there will be a lot of people who display the most vile of all evils : apathie. They won't care. It's not them loosing the hand. They will use more and more excuses to look the other way. Good people, common people, supporting the system by not caring. The jailor of the three year old, knowing what will happen, will go home after his shift, kiss his wife and play with his children in the evening sun. He doesn't consider himself evil. He goes to mass every godsday. He might even consider what happens to the child a punishment from God, because if God didn't want this child punished, he wouldn't have allowed the child to go hungry in the first place. Or the child could belong to some minority group, and evryone knows they can't be trusted. The kid would probably grow up to be a thief and a rapist. He's keeping the future of his children safe by jailing the little sod.

This might not be a very comfortable theme though, depends on your group. Hey, and as a bonus, you don't even need the devils to instigate all this. It's happening evrywhere all by itself :lol: .

Or is this not the droid you're looking for?
 

Wow, those are some good ideas for the "Celestial" group.

I'm always partial to standard devils. (i.e. horns and hooves, soul merchants.) If so, you could have a plot to buy the souls of many people of power (haven't they already done it?), and then, when the time to collect come about, also send an invading army to snatch up lands and power from vacant thrones.
 

For the fly group, hows about a devil with the Worm that Walks templates. A Pit Fiend comprised of maggots. Devilicious.


I picked up the new Dragon today and flipping through it gave me a thought, which is a first. There is an outsider subtype called the Quori which is an outsider native to the Realm of Dreams. It has telepathy and can invade dreams and possess people. One of the factions could be these. Maybe the Celestial faction relocated to the Realm of Dreams or somesuch.
 

That's it. I'm letting you guys do all my design for me from now on. :)

I'll muse on these over the weekend. Some fantastic ideas here, especially because the celestial faction had been the one I was really choking on.
 

Here's another little something to add to your weekend of musings PC ...

Think parchment, scrolls, books, writings, sacred and profane texts, etc. The third faction could be heavily into collecting, understanding, and using the written word.

You could even have one assume a form or create a golem of parchment, armored by leather bindings, etc, for visual effect. The spells scribed upon the works it is composed of could activate like glyphs when struck, and it could use some of the writings within itself to perform functions and effects.

Imagine the reaction knowledge hounds would have to fighting or even just having to deal with unholy librarians when every action could harm or grant knowledge.
 

DrZombie said:
Another thought (hey, you didn't limit us to one each :D ), maybe a bit harder to work out : the evil of lawfullness. Strict adherance to the rules and laws. All of 'em.

These would be perfect fallen celestials; the only thing is that it's a little similar to whatshername, the demigod that the Ivory King ate.

But, hey, you could use all those lawful outsiders as bad guys -- fiendish inevitables, legions of damned formians, and -- of course -- corrupted modrons. All led by a few fallen archons and/or angels.

If this is in relation to Agar's betrothement, a cabal of absolute law would be perfect foils for a guy that likes the squamous & the tentacular as much as the alienist does. Those pseudonaturals are just so . . . disorderly.

Hey, maybe these guys were allies of the dearly departed demisgoddess.
 

Tortoise said:
Imagine the reaction knowledge hounds would have to fighting or even just having to deal with unholy librarians when every action could harm or grant knowledge.

Yoink!

Hey Bob, didn't you hear? I killed all the modrons.
 

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