Champions RPG

[BkMamba]

A 7- is not a bloodbath, that's a pretty reasonable number. Since a d20 game uses flat probalities, however, I'd like to see at least 5 points between them.

It is a bloodbath because Wolverine only needs to hit Spider-man with those claws once.

You keep avoiding the subject but the real issue is one of writer's fiat. Wolverine is never going to hit Spider-man with his claws because if he does he kills him. So you have the duality of someone like Vulture being able to tag Spidey with a right cross but Wolverine always missing. Do you believe the Vulture is a more skilled figher then Wolverine?

All any game system can do is try to work on the average. The GM's job is to fill in the rest.

Spider-Man with non-Displacement Displacement doesn't sit quite right with me. I'll allow it's workable, but 1) it has some really strange effects, like making Doc Ock and Thug A closer in ability rather than further, which is not the intended effect 2) you have to specify all kinds of conditions where it doesn't work 3) it seems like an awkward of describing a character who really just has a much better defense than most of the characters he interacts with.

You are forgetting you can change the Descriptor of the Power to whatever you want. Displacement is just one specific Descriptor of the Concealment Effect. You could create another with a different Descriptor called "Unhittable" if that is what you want to do. That is the beauty of effects-based games over something like D&D.

Since combat oriented characters are going to tend toward the cap, that means effectively he must be at least PL 20 or so. Are his foes PL 20?

I would say there are several thousand people who would disagree with you and leave it a that.

 

[pawsplay]

You keep avoiding the subject but the real issue is one of writer's fiat. Wolverine is never going to hit Spider-man with his claws because if he does he kills him. So you have the duality of someone like Vulture being able to tag Spidey with a right cross but Wolverine always missing. Do you believe the Vulture is a more skilled figher then Wolverine?

I'm not avoiding the issue. It's simply a non-issue when comparing M&M to Champions. In either game, you set the Vulture's offensive ability to whatever level you'd like him to be hitting characters at. The matter at hand is Spidey's relative competence in relation to his foes'. Champions is "roomier."

 

[Felon]

It is a bloodbath because Wolverine only needs to hit Spider-man with those claws once.

You keep avoiding the subject but the real issue is one of writer's fiat. Wolverine is never going to hit Spider-man with his claws because if he does he kills him.

I don't know why you're adopting such an absolute point-of-view. Spider-Man has fought a lot of foes with claws and been slashed plenty of times without dying. Likewise, Wolverine's been in a lot of fights over the years, and it's not just repeated scenes of him summarily annihlating his opponent with a single claw swipe.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The Wolvie vs Spidey situation as compared to the Vulture vs Spidey is nowhere near as illustrative as the Firestorm vs Spidey battle back in the 1990's...which Spidey won.

That's right- years ago, Firestorm got his butt canned by the Webbed Wonder.

Consider such things as the artifacts of bad writing or possibly, just possibly, the result of some kind of mental blocks in the minds of the combatants. As in: Wolvie doesn't hit Spider-Man because subconsciously he really likes him and he knows that one solid blow and the bouncing annoyance is dead (as dead can be, in the Marvel Universe).

IOW, don't pay too close attention to the details.

 

[Felon]

The Wolvie vs Spidey situation as compared to the Vulture vs Spidey is nowhere near as illustrative as the Firestorm vs Spidey battle back in the 1990's...which Spidey won.

That's right- years ago, Firestorm got his butt canned by the Webbed Wonder.

Firestorm is a nuclear-powered superhero from DC Comics.

You might be referring to Firelord, the former herald of Galactus. That fight happened in the eighties. Spider-Man has fared well against powerful opponents like Firelord and Arno Stark when really angry, and even entire groups of supers (like the X-Men or the Sinister Six). Which also illustrates an important point in comics: an ordinary person's physical capabilities can vary on a given day in a given situation, so why shouldn't a super's?

Again, this another point made by Mark Gruenwald in the pages of OFHMU. The amount a character could lift (press) was specified as being under optimal conditions. Folks thinking the ways folks tend to do, wanting things to be nice and consistent and quantifiable, they ignored the word "optimal" and tried to draw all sorts of conclusions about character capabilities and who could beat whom. Gruenwald pointed out that just because character A proved able to hold his own against character B in a fight, that doesn't mean they're equally powerful. There are all kinds of things that factor into a battle, and one of them is simply that some of us are having better days than others.

I guess if you get Spiday's adrenaline pumping, that proportional spider-strength can go a long way.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Thanks for the correction, Felon- you're absolutely right about my Firestorm/Firelord gaffe!

I guess if you get Spiday's adrenaline pumping, that proportional spider-strength can go a long way

Firelord took shots from The Thing and kept going...I'm pretty sure Spidey's best would feel like a kick in the shins from a toddler to the former HoG.

 

[BkMamba]

I don't know why you're adopting such an absolute point-of-view. Spider-Man has fought a lot of foes with claws and been slashed plenty of times without dying. Likewise, Wolverine's been in a lot of fights over the years, and it's not just repeated scenes of him summarily annihlating his opponent with a single claw swipe.

I am adopting my point of view because we are talking about a game system not comic books. As I have said several times now Spidey surviving such a thing in a comic is WRITER's FIAT - the writer decides that Spidey only gets three small slashes on his arm. In Champions Wolverine is looking at having around a 4d6 AP HKA. That is 14 Body Damage on average. That is major damage to a character like Spidey who probably only has around a 15 Body total.

In M&M WRITER's FIAT for the players takes the form of Hero Points. Spidey's player could spend a Hero Point and reroll the Toughness Save against Wolverine's slash and end up only taking a Injured result - the slashes to the arm. In Champions all Spidey's player can do is pray Wolverine rolls below average; and if Wolvie rolls above average all Spidey can do is die.

 

[BkMamba]

The Wolvie vs Spidey situation as compared to the Vulture vs Spidey is nowhere near as illustrative as the Firestorm vs Spidey battle back in the 1990's...which Spidey won.

That's right- years ago, Firestorm got his butt canned by the Webbed Wonder.

Consider such things as the artifacts of bad writing or possibly, just possibly, the result of some kind of mental blocks in the minds of the combatants. As in: Wolvie doesn't hit Spider-Man because subconsciously he really likes him and he knows that one solid blow and the bouncing annoyance is dead (as dead can be, in the Marvel Universe).

IOW, don't pay too close attention to the details.

There is a 1,000 post thread on the Hero forum about said thing. People are sharply divided on that one. My own opinion is that it is just a crock of writer's fiat.

I think the ultimate point is that when designing characters you must design them for the average not the extreme. If you design Spidey based on the idea that he fought and beat Firelord once then it makes all the combats against all the people he normally fights pointless. Spidey loses to the Lizard and Doc Oct and Mysterio. In a game that could never happen if he was designed to defeat Firelord.

 

[buzz]

In M&M WRITER's FIAT for the players takes the form of Hero Points. Spidey's player could spend a Hero Point and reroll the Toughness Save against Wolverine's slash and end up only taking a Injured result - the slashes to the arm. In Champions all Spidey's player can do is pray Wolverine rolls below average; and if Wolvie rolls above average all Spidey can do is die.

It is in this regard (as well as Complications and GM Fiat) that M&M totally p0wns HERO, IMO. It comes up quite a bit on the HERO boards.

Thankfully, this is really easy to import. The Heroic Action Points described in Pulp HERO almost get you there, too. I will never run another HERO game without this sort of mechanic.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It is in this regard (as well as Complications and GM Fiat) that M&M totally p0wns HERO, IMO.

HERO DOES have the Luck power which can get you similar results to "action points," but admittedly, like any other power, you have to pay for it to gain the benefit.

Also, going back to Champions 3rd, some people have advocated the use of unused build points as "action points."

Whether you find this to be a flaw or a feature depends upon your personal taste.