Champions RPG

[Fedifensor]

The things you build into a character are what give them the special abilities you see in the comics. If you do not give Spider-man the Skills, Feats, and Powers which make his agility shine then it will not.

Agreed. M&M is very Champion-esque in that you can use special effects in combination with character build choices to give you an accurate game representation of comic-book characters.

 

[pawsplay]

There are so many possible ways of making Spider-man virtually unhittable that it is hardly even worth mentioning. Just like Champions M&M bases Powers off of special effects. But you can start with the basics:

The things you build into a character are what give them the special abilities you see in the comics. If you do not give Spider-man the Skills, Feats, and Powers which make his agility shine then it will not.

I agree that there are powers in M&M that grant Spidey like powers, that is not the point at all. My point was that at PL 10, Spidey is vulnerable to being splatted by other PL 10 characters. In the comics, only characters with extraordinary abilities stand a chance of touching him without resorting to unusual tactics. For instance, the Thing doesn't have a realistic chance of touching him without bringing a building down on him.

In Champions, however, putting his DCV at the high end will make him almost untouchable against foes with CV's at the low end.

 

[Jim Hague]

I agree that there are powers in M&M that grant Spidey like powers, that is not the point at all. My point was that at PL 10, Spidey is vulnerable to being splatted by other PL 10 characters. In the comics, only characters with extraordinary abilities stand a chance of touching him without resorting to unusual tactics. For instance, the Thing doesn't have a realistic chance of touching him without bringing a building down on him.

In Champions, however, putting his DCV at the high end will make him almost untouchable against foes with CV's at the low end.

And as Mamba pointed out, you can do the exact same thing in MnM. PL is a general gauge of power level, nothing more. The argument that it 'makes everyone equal' is as silly as claiming all 150 point heroes in HERO are 'equal'.

Instead, Iron Man's player can feel overshadowed by bow-wielding Hawkeyes. Because, in M&M, it's relatively easy to hit, and relatively easy to do damage, within a certain PL, characters are less distinguished in types of fights they can win. That can be a feature. but it also means there are no nearly invulnerable or nearly unhittable characters; Spider-Man is all but outside what M&M allows unless you juke the PLs and put people on unequal footing.

PLs are to put everyone on equal footing, which is NOT genre. They work pretty well for X-Men type games, with multiple characters who tend to be roughly on the same playing field, not so well for JLA where each characters is an acknowledged master in a particular area.

Funny thing here is - you're dead solid wrong. I'm running a PL 13 200+ point JLA-style game featuring a Greek hand-to-hand fighter with no powers at all and an Iron Man type...and, crazy thing, they're both effective. Talon, the martial artist, doesn't do as much damage as the American Dream, but he's got a variety of things he can do that AD can't. Likewise, AD can pump out the damage or bust out a Gadget if need be. The rest of the characters have a wide range of abilities, and it all works - and they're all masters of their fields.

Your argument holds no water - barring campaign rules, I can just buy level after level of OCV in Champions and hit anyone; conversely, I could buy DCV through the roof and never get hit. Just like I could trade down Damage for Attack or vice versa, or Toughness for Defense. There are plenty of nearly invulnerable (Impervious Toughness or appropriate Immunities) or nearly unhittable (most speedsters) characters in MnM, just like Champions. Now that the Think Tank is back up, go out there and look at the builds you're citing, and original builds for other characters. You'll see that you're entirely incorrect.

 

[BkMamba]

My point was that at PL 10, Spidey is vulnerable to being splatted by other PL 10 characters. In the comics, only characters with extraordinary abilities stand a chance of touching him without resorting to unusual tactics. For instance, the Thing doesn't have a realistic chance of touching him without bringing a building down on him.

And you believe all of the people in Spider-man's Rogue's Gallery are all tougher then him? When Spider-man and Doc Oct are trading blows and Spidey is getting hit or grabbed you think this is because Doc Oct is PL 15 and Spidey is only PL 10? Electro, Doc Oct, Lizard, Vulture, and others are all right around the same power level as Spider-man. When Spidey is not specifically dodging he is susceptable to getting hit by people of equal power level.

When you see Spider-man fighting someone more powerful them him - and I only consider Thing a couple of Ranks higher then Spidey - he is using Combat Maneuvers and Hero Points to try and stay alive and gain some advantage. And I do not know how your Thing is built but I know mine would find it nearly impossible to hit a 27-30 Defense Spider-man before we ever include any Powers like Displacement or Deflect from my post above.

In Champions, however, putting his DCV at the high end will make him almost untouchable against foes with CV's at the low end.

And you are assuming those foes do not also have a low Attack in M&M? If Rhino has a low OCV in HERO he will also have a low Attack in M&M. There is no difference in character design. Rhino does not become a kung fu master when attacking just because he is built in M&M.

 

[pawsplay]

There is simply less distance between Spidey and Rhino in M&M than there is in Hero. I'm not completely down on the result... it's a common thing in comics for fights to go in an unpredictable way exactly because one character smacks down another that by previous canon, they probably couldn't. For instance, people punching down Superman who could not themselves punch through things Superman can punch through with his body (at the extreme, in the old serials, he was punched by ordinary things). Similarly, few people punched by the Hulk die, whether they are super tough or not.

However. My general preference is for greater consistency. At PL 10, you have maybe a 20 point spread between the top and the bottom, and far less room between "competent" and "maxed out for this PL." I can totally believe Doc Ock is the same PL as Spidey and doesn't have his attacks maxed out for accuracy, although he is extremely dangerous. The problem I see is that someone like Wolverine isn't going to leave his attack bonus at a weak level; if it comes within a few points of Spidey, though, being the same PL as him, you get a bloodbath.

A lot of people like the old TSR Marvel game, but it's a fact, five thugs shooting at Spider-Man have a likelihood of winging him.

 

[Felon]

An invaluable suppliment for any supers game in a system as flexible as M&M or Champions are the Marvel & DC omnibus stat books- Marvel Universe and Who's Who, as I recall- they put hard numbers on the abilities of the various characters. Top speeds, Maximum press, etc.

I'm not sure how useful that stuff is myself.

DC"s Who's Who did not play with hard numbers. Intentionally so, because they didn't want the inevitable discrepencies you'd get if you try to establish hard limits on powers with a "low end" and "high end". It means nothing to say someone can lift (press) 75 tons if you see him picking up an ocean liner or holding up a mountain or dragging the island of Manhattan.

The Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe's editor, Mark Gruenwald, realized this and wound up stating explicitly that the data in the OFHMU was simply based on the most accurate data available.

 

[BkMamba]

The problem I see is that someone like Wolverine isn't going to leave his attack bonus at a weak level; if it comes within a few points of Spidey, though, being the same PL as him, you get a bloodbath.

I believe you are obfuscating certain points but you are not taking the total picture into account. As I have said several times, Spider-man's resistance to getting hit is more then just his Defense Ability. If you give Spidey either of the Powers I discussed above it completely changes the context. A Spider-man with the Displacement Power means he is missed 50% of the time no matter what Wolverine's Attack value is. A Spider-man with Deflect (Free Action) means he automatically gets a chance to avoid the Damage of every attack made against him. So how many lines of defense does Spider-man need? He has a very high Defense, he has the Toughness roll - not to mention a Hero Point to re-roll, and he has Deflect and/or Displacement to also increase his chances of not getting hit. That is about as unhittable as anyone can get.

And I will also restate here - since you seemed to avoid it in the last post - that Spider-man always gets hit by people in his Rogue's Gallery who are the same PL as him if he is not actively trying to avoid getting hit by doing Defensive Attack or Total Defense. I mean come on. An old man with mechanical wings can punch him.

What do you think Spider-man's DCV is in Champions? I have him at a 12 base, +5 from Spider-Sense, and up to +5 more from Martial Arts for a Martial Dodge total of 22. With Spider-man using Defensive Strike he has a 20 DCV. My Wolverine has a 16 OCV with his claws. 7 or less and Spidey is hit. Even there Spider-man is not unhittable and you get your "bloodbath."

I personally think the point you are really confusing is game mechanics versus writer's fiat. In the comics Spider-man is unhittable because panel by panel the writer decides whether Spidey gets hit or not. In a game it is determined randomly. It does not matter whether you are playing Champions, M&M, or some other superhero game system. In all of them Wolverine is going to have a chance to hit Spider-man. The game is not the comic.

 

[Theron]

I just want to offer a little input regarding balancing disparate power levels in Champions or other point-buy supers games: Hero Games's electronic magazine, Digital Hero, provided an in-depth article in issue #3 by veteran HERO player Theron Bretz with some of the best advice I've ever seen on how to approach this issue, Pointless Champions. (No, not the way some of you are thinking.) There's a very sizeable free sample from that article posted on the Hero Games website, here: http://www.herogames.com/digitalHero/Samples/dh03pointlesschampions.htm

Thanks for the cite, Liaden!

 

[buzz]

I personally think the point you are really confusing is game mechanics versus writer's fiat. In the comics Spider-man is unhittable because panel by panel the writer decides whether Spidey gets hit or not. In a game it is determined randomly. It does not matter whether you are playing Champions, M&M, or some other superhero game system. In all of them Wolverine is going to have a chance to hit Spider-man. The game is not the comic.

Except for some of the newer-fangled hippie games, of course.

Any RPG that is at its core a reality-simulator (even if it's an imagined "reality") is going to have the kinds of issues that spark debates like this. HERO, M&M, WT, MEGS, DCU, etc.

 

[pawsplay]

What do you think Spider-man's DCV is in Champions? I have him at a 12 base, +5 from Spider-Sense, and up to +5 more from Martial Arts for a Martial Dodge total of 22. With Spider-man using Defensive Strike he has a 20 DCV. My Wolverine has a 16 OCV with his claws. 7 or less and Spidey is hit. Even there Spider-man is not unhittable and you get your "bloodbath."

A 7- is not a bloodbath, that's a pretty reasonable number. Since a d20 game uses flat probalities, however, I'd like to see at least 5 points between them.

Spider-Man with non-Displacement Displacement doesn't sit quite right with me. I'll allow it's workable, but 1) it has some really strange effects, like making Doc Ock and Thug A closer in ability rather than further, which is not the intended effect 2) you have to specify all kinds of conditions where it doesn't work 3) it seems like an awkward of describing a character who really just has a much better defense than most of the characters he interacts with.

If you put 5 points (25%) betwen a skilled police officer and some ordinary person, and 5 points more to a professional superhero of some kind, five more for one that specializes in accurate attacks, and five more for Spidey being hard to hit even for them, you need a 20 point spread (ordinary folks hit only on a natural 20). Since combat oriented characters are going to tend toward the cap, that means effectively he must be at least PL 20 or so. Are his foes PL 20?