Champions RPG

[buzz]

I thought the FUZION was an interesting idea on how to remove a lot of the weird math etc in character creation and how damage was worked out. It was wacky in a lot of regards and I was not happy with everything BUT the beginnings of something cool were there...

Take a look at the award-wining Artesia FRPG for a great implementation of FUZION.

 

[Felon]

You seem to be hung up on the amount of the dice, rather than looking at how easy it is to get access to that amount of dice.

Again, your argument wasn't based on that. It was based on the fact that a character with a 5d6 attack could "never" damage someone with the average defenses of a superhero (20). I pointed out the error in that statement by showing that anyone can push up their damage by +4d6 with a Haymaker, bringing their damage to a range where it has an effect.

I think it may be you who are hung up on the amount of dice. The 5d6 attack mentioned is pretty clearly actually intended to represent 5d6 of damage (with the open-ended possibility of NND or Autofire being tacked on), but rather it represents a relatively low-damage attack, like Daredevil's fist or the Black Widow's sting (which don't have NND or Autofire tacked on). The real point isn't how easily Daredevil's fist could wind up doing as much damage Spider-Man's or the Hulk's. The point is, in Champions damage and defenses all gravitate very closely around the median with little room for variation.

There's been some talk of how in M&M low-damage attacks have a greater potential to hurt a high-defense character. I think it's even more significant to note that a low-defense M&M character is more likely to be able to stand up to punishment as well, because that's where the heart of Champions' problem is. In Champions, your defenses had darn well better be close to that median or you can expect to be constantly stunned by the guys whose damage stays close to the median.

And unfortunately, the agile attack-avoiding character has just lacks viability. Area-affecting attacks and the difficulty of boosting DCV (relative to boosting OCV) levels are killer.

100% agree with you... plus the cover by Preze was cool (poor little Seeker was going to DIE!)

Yep, with no Evasion-type ability, a Dex-oriented hero is at a big disadvantage. That wall Dr. Destroyer is holding is gonna smoosh him good.

 

[Sketchpad]

Yea that would be kind of cool... and I know I would get burned over on the HERO board but I did not hate Champions: the New Millennium. I thought the FUZION was an interesting idea on how to remove a lot of the weird math etc in character creation and how damage was worked out. It was wacky in a lot of regards and I was not happy with everything BUT the beginnings of something cool were there...

FUZION/C:NM wasn't bad ... but it needed more "umph" in the beginning. I do have to admit, while I don't care for the Iron Age of comics, I did dig some of the direction C:NM took Speaking as graphic designer, I especially loved the production value and look of the C:NM books and think that Hero's big drawback is the packaging of their material. If the Hero books looked even half as good as M&M, I think more people would be playing it.

Months, years, whatever, there are two different 5th ed books out there with the same cover and that's why they seem to sell for cheap on eBay. Usually, folks are just buying the older book.

On the plus side, the rules aren't all that different between FRED and RE-FRED. The big changes are mostly in layout and organization, but RE-FRED has some added clarifications Which is better, IMHO, than 3.0 to 3.5 in such a small time-frame

 

[Krolik]

On the plus side, the rules aren't all that different between FRED and RE-FRED. The big changes are mostly in layout and organization, but RE-FRED has some added clarifications Which is better, IMHO, than 3.0 to 3.5 in such a small time-frame

As much as I love M&M (it's the best superhero game in the world! ) I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that M&M 2e was also released around 4 years after 1e. I think 3-4 years is the industry standard for all companies.

 

[Sketchpad]

It does seem so these days ...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I couldn't stomach Fuzion.

 

[Fedifensor]

I think it may be you who are hung up on the amount of dice. The 5d6 attack mentioned is pretty clearly actually intended to represent 5d6 of damage (with the open-ended possibility of NND or Autofire being tacked on), but rather it represents a relatively low-damage attack, like Daredevil's fist or the Black Widow's sting (which don't have NND or Autofire tacked on). The real point isn't how easily Daredevil's fist could wind up doing as much damage Spider-Man's or the Hulk's. The point is, in Champions damage and defenses all gravitate very closely around the median with little room for variation.

Your premise is faulty. Looking at your specific examples, Daredevil is a highly-trained martial artist in peak physical condition. I would put him at a 15 Strength (possibly higher), and he would definately have at least +2 damage classes bought with martial arts due to his skill. That would put him at a minimum 7d6 with a standard martial strike (more if he uses a weapon). Likewise, Black Widow's sting would be a 7d6 or 8d6 energy blast - enough to do STUN to superheroes on an average roll, and knock out the average man on the street.

You keep wanting to go back to 5d6, which as one poster pointed out is barely more than household current (actually, it's the equivalent of heavy household current on a poorly insulated target). A club in the hands of an average joe with no martial training does 4d6, or 5d6 in the hands of someone with above-average (15) STR. Of course that's not going to get through the average super's force field, armored suit, or mutated skin. Why is this a problem? Do you think Joe Sixpack should be able to pick up a club and knock out Power Man or Booster Gold with a lucky hit?

Most attacks in a standard point value Champions game are from 7d6 to 14d6, as you stated. But the range is far wider than you suggest. You didn't mention half dice, or killing attacks (which significantly alter the equation due to the "STUN lotto" and resolving BODY damage versus resistant defenses only). I've seen a .44 pistol shot (2d6 killing, equivalent of 6d6 normal damage) stun superheroes on a good roll.

5d6 may be able to hurt a street-level superhero on a lucky shot (such as when using the Hit Location chart), but it should not be a viable weapon in a typical superhero game unless you have something else to back it up (such as martial arts to increase the damage, making it out of vibranium, or something similar). In short, 5d6 is not representative of a standard superhero game.

 

[Felon]

5d6 may be able to hurt a street-level superhero on a lucky shot (such as when using the Hit Location chart), but it should not be a viable weapon in a typical superhero game unless you have something else to back it up (such as martial arts to increase the damage, making it out of vibranium, or something similar). In short, 5d6 is not representative of a standard superhero game.

Forget the 5d6 already! I just told you that it wasn't about 5d6 and here you are telling me that I "keep wanting to go back to 5d6".

You're telling us how easily a guy like Daredevil can ratchet his damage up. Why, with a 20 STR and Offensive Strike, he's doing 8d6 right there! Even without a weapon, he's hitting like a jackhammer. Now, what folks are saying in return is that Daredevil's fists don't hit like jackhammers. He can't punch down a brick wall bare-handed. And if you're fighting anyone that's ever appeared in an official Champions supplement, you have a problem if you can't take out brick walls, because the median defense is tougher than a brick wall, and characters don't stray far from the median.

Contrast that to an actual superteam's adventures. Does every villain have a force field or some degree of invulnerability? When the Master of Evil attack, is there someone the Black Knight can deck with a lucky left hook?

BkMamba did a nice little breakdown where he pointed that for all the diverse archetypes represented in the Champions supergroup, they are pretty darn homogeneous, and that's by necessity.

 

[buzz]

To make this somewhat relevant to the OP...

While Felon and BkMamba make valid pionts, I haven't really seen this "sameness" issue cause any problems in my group's HERO campaigns. In actual play terms, we're all creating our PCs with the same amount of points, yet still keep our special-effects niche: power armor guy (me), supermage, brick, alien/robot, gunslinger, etc. Certain PCs fare better against certain foes, tactical decisions are made, and much enjoyable mayhem ensues.

We all know we're playing within campaign guidelines where Active Points are in range X and typical Def is Y, and we build PCs to be effective in that zone... whether that's via sheer amount of dice, or Advantages, or Find Weakness, or whatever.

Whether M&M (or any other SHRPG) does this better or worse, I can't say definitively, as I don't play other SHRPGs nearly as much. All I can say is that HERO works for us with the same caveats I see in other systems I play (e.g., D&D): setting appropriate challenges, good GM-player communication, etc.

 

[BkMamba]

Whether M&M (or any other SHRPG) does this better or worse, I can't say definitively, as I don't play other SHRPGs nearly as much. All I can say is that HERO works for us with the same caveats I see in other systems I play (e.g., D&D): setting appropriate challenges, good GM-player communication, etc.

I think better and worse are subjective terms. Both M&M and Champions accomplish the same goal: filling up X amount of hours of superhero goodness per game session. It just comes down to what style of play you prefer. If you are someone who loves uber-crunchy rules, loves to constantly tinker with numbers, and likes grinding out tactical combats then Champions is your game. If you are looking for a slightly lighter rules system which focus a little more on free-form play rather then exact limits with quicker, less tactical, combats then M&M is your game. And then there are lighter games still like Marvel Superheroes, Capes, Truth & Justice, etc.

I think it is more important to try games without preconcieved notions. For twenty years I was a die-hard Champions player who swore it was the greatest game in the world. I was one of Hero Games' biggest supporters and was labeled a fanboy more than once on the Hero forum. The other players in our group basically had to coerce me into trying M&M. I could not believe what I was playing when they did. It totally changed how I saw superhero gaming. I was no longer trying to rationalize the Speed Chart; or deal with why my superhero can only fly 80 MPH or 5,000 with an Advantage but nothing in between; or make sense of why Grond can punch through a steel wall but is completely unable to rip the head off of Nighthawk no matter how hard he tried.

For me M&M lets me play the superhero genre. That is something Champions really did not allow me to do sometime about two-thirds the way through 4th Edition. To each their own.