Champions RPG

[buzz]

You aren't supposed to hop around everywhere instead of running even though leaping movement scales to STR while running movement is a flat 6" (and once again, STR pays for itself).

FWIW, you need to spend 20 points on STR to get 6" of leaping, i.e., the same amount of Running you get for free. You could have 16" of total Running for the same cost. And that 6" leap is a running jump; a standing jump is less. Having two bricks in our regular game, I haven't seen the need to do a whole lot of leaping.

Erekose, this is another good example of what you can expect if you get into HERO, i.e., math-filled debates to prove the system sucks. M&M has its share of it, too, but not as much.

You're not supposed to, but you're pretty much on the honor system. And I have a beef with a character-building system that revolves around a fairly complex system of point-costing when that system ultimately does such a poor job of abuse-policing. What is the point of all the accounting if, in the end, you could get away with just as much by just making it all up off the top of your head? Let's play TSR Marvel Super-Heroes if we just don't care about balance.

I sort of understand where you're coming from, but this hasn't been an issue in the HERO I've played. The core book and the supplements are also pretty clear on point guidelines for various types of campaigns. Yeah, I've had to call BS on some builds as a GM, but I've had to do that in D&D, too.

HERO works for me. I won't deny that it could probably use a bigger overhaul than it ever seems to get, nor that its complexity can be really daunting sometimes. Still, my group has lots of fun with it, and I enjoy the products Hero Games puts out.

If complexity, and not wanting to get into math debates, is really an issue, though, M&M is not going to save you much strife. As more supplements come out, it starts to suffer from complexity creep, just like HERO.

Honestly, if you want a simple supers game that does the genre exceptionally, you need to check out Truth & Justice by Atomic Sock Monkey. It rocks on toast, and heck, it's won Ennies!

 

[Whimsical]

Hey! Lookee what I found at herogames.com. Migrating From d20. A very appropriate link for a Champions-topic thread on a d20 message board.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In many areas, Champions just does a bad job of representing the spectrum of superhero concepts. You really need resistant defenses. You really need everyone's atacks to do roughly the same amount of damage. You really have to consider Knockback Resistance because otherwise the knockback rules will have every character spending a half-phase standing up every time they get hit.

Huh. Never had that experience myself. I think it really depends on the particular campaign.

One of the most fun characters I ever ran was a brick/alien gladiator type who was very tough vs physical attacks...but no more resistent to energy attacks than a talented normal.

I've run PCs with almost no attack abilities...like a private eye who was virtually invulnerable, but his only offense bigger than a STR15 punch was his Desert Eagle (2d6K).

 

[WayneLigon]

I'll check out the M&M websites suggested (an download the sample chapter).

Please do. I played Champions for many, many years. I ran several long-term campaigns with it, and got to the point where popping off a 600-point supervillain was an exercise of about 10 minutes time because I write sort of slow.

About two hours after reading M&M, I was really excited. After the first few sessions of a campaign, I put almost all my HERO stuff in a box (The new Hudson City book stays out; it's a wonderful sourcebook).

 

[Glyfair]

I played Champions for about 10 years starting from its first release. It was the first decent RPG I was exposed to (with Superhero 2044 being the first, horrible, one).

We used to dominate the game club attached to our game store on Saturdays. We usually had two or three games going in the afternoon and one going in the evening. My regular group even started a Fantasy Hero game just before 3E was released.

IMO, the thing Champions reproduces worst from the genre is difference in power levels. You just don't have very many effective games where both the Question and Superman can interact, at least without bending the feel of the character concept.

However, that's a very difficult thing to do. I'm not sure if M&M does it, because I haven't had a chance to play (all the superhero fans in my group are scattered across the country). The original DC game didn't it reasonably well, the original Marvel game didn't. I think the best chance I've heard about is a rumor for a Heroquest variation that's designed to handle several genres, including supers.

 

[buzz]

The new Hudson City book stays out; it's a wonderful sourcebook.

I hereby forgive you for putting away your Champions stuff. Hudson City is one of my favorite HERO books.

 

[buzz]

IMO, the thing Champions reproduces worst from the genre is difference in power levels. You just don't have very many effective games where both the Question and Superman can interact, at least without bending the feel of the character concept.

However, that's a very difficult thing to do. I'm not sure if M&M does it, because I haven't had a chance to play (all the superhero fans in my group are scattered across the country).

M&M suffers from this, too. It's an inherent issue with any system based on simulating the powers instead of the genre (just like running a D&D or FH party with both the 1st-level, Normal Frodo and the 15th-level Superhero Aragorn). For the latter, one probably needs to look to hippie games like HeroQuest, With Great Power, Capes, or the aforementioned Truth & Justice.

 

[BkMamba]

M&M suffers from this, too. It's an inherent issue with any system based on simulating the powers instead of the genre (just like running a D&D or FH party with both the 1st-level, Normal Frodo and the 15th-level Superhero Aragorn).

I have never had any problem with this in M&M. Two weekends ago I ran three FLGS demos with the system using the Avengers against the Legion of Doom. All of the Avengers were the same PL they just had differenet point totals. The guy playing Hawkeye had just as much fun as the guy playing Thor.

One of the great things about M&M is that someone doing +5 Damage can still be effective in the game. The 10 Toughness villain still has a 45% chance of taking Damage from the Blast 5; everyone does not need to do +10 Damage to be considered effective. This allows characters to have a huge potential Damage Range in the game. This is in direct contrast to a game like HERO where someone with a 5d6 Energy Blast would be completely useless in a game where everyone else is doing 10d6+.

For the latter, one probably needs to look to hippie games like HeroQuest, With Great Power, Capes, or the aforementioned Truth & Justice.

I personally never cared for "story" systems. As much as I love role-playing I feel that systems where you tell the GM what you want to do and then he assigns an arbitrary penalty roll eventually leads to player/GM conflict because the player and GM both have different predefined notions of what their limits should be. I think most players like to play heroic characters and do not want their Frodo getting beaten by a giant spider no matter what the GM says.

 

[buzz]

I have never had any problem with this in M&M. Two weekends ago I ran three FLGS demos with the system using the Avengers against the Legion of Doom. All of the Avengers were the same PL they just had differenet point totals. The guy playing Hawkeye had just as much fun as the guy playing Thor.

I don't know the Avengers as well as I do some of the DC characters, but I'll take your word for it. I still think you'd be hard pressed to keep accurate versions of Supes and a trained normal like Question balanced with each other in most mainstream supers games.

This is in direct contrast to a game like HERO where someone with a 5d6 Energy Blast would be completely useless in a game where everyone else is doing 10d6+.

I'd have to see specific characters and know what the campaign limits are.

As it is, I don't think your comparison really maps. 10d6 is double the damage of 5d6 in HERO, i.e., +100%. +10 is not double the damage of +5 in M&M; it's the difference between a DC25 and a DC20 Damage save, which is +25%. A 10 Toughness villain has a 30% chance of making the former, and a 55% chance of making the latter.

A more accurate HERO analog would be 7d6 vs 5d6, which isn't out of whack at all.

I personally never cared for "story" systems. As much as I love role-playing I feel that systems where you tell the GM what you want to do and then he assigns an arbitrary penalty roll eventually leads to player/GM conflict because the player and GM both have different predefined notions of what their limits should be. I think most players like to play heroic characters and do not want their Frodo getting beaten by a giant spider no matter what the GM says.

What you describe doesn't reflect in any way whatsoever how the games I listed work.

 

[JoeGKushner]

In terms of damage output, in Champions, most games I've run are usually the same.

The strength 60 brick does 12d6.

The martial artists does 5d6, +4d6 offensive strike +2/4 DCs for 11/13d6.

The beamer does 12d6 energy blast.

The archer with modified arrows does 12d6 energy blast.

Big differences usually happen in terms of taking damage versus # of actons.

And neither M&M nor Hero model characters like Thor or Superman very well i nthe first place I'm afraid. A 10 PL Superman is no Superman.