Champions RPG

[buzz]

Talk about using skewed math. For the HERO example you are comparing damage output to damage output to get your 100% but for the M&M example you are comparing damage output versus defensive toughness. You must compare apples to apples. For damage ouput +10 is 100% more then +5 in both games.

I'm sorry, but you led off the discussion by comparing M&M's Damage bonus directly to dice of damage in HERO, and, as you're saying now and I pointed out above, that's not an apples to apples comparison. The difference between a +10 and +5 damage in M&M is not comparable to the difference (ignoring modifiers) between 10d6 and 5d6 Normal damage in HERO. You originally said they were comparable, and I'm telling you, that's not the case.

The real difference between +10 and +5 is the final DC, 25 vs. 20. The way this interacts with the damage mechanic, which progresses in steps of 5, iirc, is not at all the same as HERO's damage dice. That's the point I was trying to make.

For comparing defensive toughness, In HERO a 5d6 attack averages 18/5 Damage. The average Defense in the game is 20.

No, 20 is the the maximum nonresistant Defense in a 350pt (Standard) supers game. The max resistant Def hovers around 10.

That means the 5d6 attack does 0 Damage to the average foe.

Not the average. And if we start talking about KAs and Advantages, the whole argument changes. A vanilla 5d6 EB is 25 Active Points, which is barely over half the minimum of the Standard Supers Active Point range for powers (40-80).

In M&M a +5 Blast has a 45% chance of damaging the 10 Toughness average foe.

Sure, but again, it doesn't map 1:1 to your hypothetical 5d6 HERO attack. Also, the 45% chance is simply for failing the save. The actual affect of the hit depends on the degree of failure. The percentage chance of a single hit having significant effect is less.

But it doesn't really matter, as you're not comparing comparable things. The M&M equivalent of your hypothetical 5d6 Normal HERO attack isn't +5. It's probably more like +3 or less.

 

[buzz]

There's no reason in the world the two of them ought to be physically fighting the same opponents; any enemy that could come close to holding his own with Superman is somebody the Question would very logically stay the hell away from.

Right, but that's not mechanical balance, that's compartmentalizing the encounters to make up for the mechanical imbalance. E.g., Frodo always gets attacked by 1HD goblins, while Aragorn always gets attacked by 10HD orc warblades.

I'm saying this is neither good nor bad, it just is.

 

[Jim Hague]

I think that's the point Joe is trying to make, i.e., they are not, ergo the difficulty of balancing accurate portrayals of them against accurate portrayals of other characters (e.g., Question) who would be significantly lower in PL (M&M) or points (HERO).

Problem is, it's a flawed point.

As Mamba points out, PL is simply a measure of internal balance, not effectiveness. Unlike 1e, characters are not restricted in the number of points available by PL, merely their caps...and even that's flexible, thanks to trade-offs. So PL as measurement of anything but balance doesn't work (nor is it supposed to). It's a 'Batman vs. Superman' argument - while Supes is effectively invulnerable and high PL, Bats has a lot of points sunken into Feats and skills and combat ability. Who wins? Is it based on PL? Hardly.

Likewise, the assumption that everyone starts at PL 10 is false - that's something set by the individual GM. While the characters presented in the corebook are PL 10 (the archetypes, at least - villains are different), there's nothing saying you can't start at PL 6 (for an Agents of Freedom game) or PL 15-20 (for a cosmic-level campaign). PL 10 is the middle of the road, not anythign resembling a hard mechanical setting, much like the 'default' assumption of 100 points in HERO.

The idea that different PL characters are going to either fall or own the field is likewise flawed; much like other point-based system, it's where you put the points, the campaign...a lot of facotrs. Taking the Nick Fury example, Agents of Freedom addresses this issue nicely...and if someone thinks that Nick (perhaps a PL 7-8 character built on a great, great many points) isn't going to have a good chance again, say, Iron Man or Thor, heavy hitters both, they're very, very much mistaken.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A little FYI on the "PL10" Superman.

A lot of game magazines published HERO versions of popular Marvel, DC and other superheroes (and arch-enemies) over time- I have ones detailing the DNAgents, Teen Titans & X-Men that I can recall.

In the articles, Magneto and the like typically ran into the 1800+ point range, and did a good job of simulating those kinds of characters. However, instead of burdening the PCs with Disads, they either gave a "bonus" or upped the base points (from 100 to 200-300) or both to simulate "experienced" characters.

I'd say that both M&M & HERO can simulate those highly powerful PCs with a little lateral thinking.

There are also online groups that routinely post designs etc. for M&M. (I'm a member of one called mnm_hall_of_heroes.)

 

[BkMamba]

No, 20 is the the maximum nonresistant Defense in a 350pt (Standard) supers game. The max resistant Def hovers around 10.

Buzz, did you even read what you just typed above? 20 is the MAXIMUM in a 350 point Champions game? So you are telling me every 350 point character with greater then a 20 is breaking the rules because they are exceeding the MAXIMUM allowed? No. Not at all. For every guy with a 15 Defense there are just as many guys with a 35 Defense in HERO. 20 is the AVERAGE not the MAXIMUM just as I stated above.

Not the average. And if we start talking about KAs and Advantages, the whole argument changes. A vanilla 5d6 EB is 25 Active Points, which is barely over half the minimum of the Standard Supers Active Point range for powers (40-80).

I do not waste my time worring about Advanages in HERO or Extras in M&M. Those two things balance each other out. Nor am I going to talk about Killing Attacks because you are trying to use KAs due to the stun lotto - which is a game-breaker by itself. A strait-up 5d6 EB in HERO will be just enough to knockout an 8 Characteristic normal, nothing else.

But it doesn't really matter, as you're not comparing comparable things. The M&M equivalent of your hypothetical 5d6 Normal HERO attack isn't +5. It's probably more like +3 or less.

Some people which I respect who have written for both game systems have indicated that conversion between the two systems has them doing equal Damage at 8d6 or less and has the M&M values actually lower then the HERO values at higher dice. So when converting 8d6 in HERO it maps out to +8 Damage in M&M but 12d6 in HERO only maps out to +10 Damage in M&M. You are, of course, free to convert them however you wish but I have found Aaron Sullivan's conversion to be fairly close to spot-on.

 

[Karl Green]

It's more complex than D&D, but simply saying it's "too complex" is a bit unfair.

True BUT it is REALLY hard to teach new players (at least for me)... might just be because I know the system but when I talk about it to new players I just see their eyes glazing over. I like M&M well enough and its cool...

Another things that I am not a huge fan of when it comes to HERO in a super-hero game is that you have to have EVERYTHING spelled out and detailed on your characters for all your powers, unless you allow a Variable Power Pool AND that is a whole other can of worms in my mind

 

[Felon]

Like any game, there are times where game reality takes a strange turn. A motorcycle needs to have the power Shrinking, always on, no END cost?

Don't forget to sink a bunch of points into Change Environment...otherwise your won't have any headlights! Of course, I've never a seen a vehicle that was actually built with headlights in a HERO supplement, but we all know the ability to do something as powerful as create light has to be paid for--and in 5th edition, it ain't cheeap.

I picked up the 5th edition "toolkit" over on Ebay for $15 plus shipping, out of pure nostalgia.

Note that the 5th edition book was revised within the first few months of its release. The page count went up, a little more material went in.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Note that the 5th edition book was revised within the first few months of its release.

No.

From Wikipedia :

In 2001, the Fifth Edition of the HERO System Rulebook was released that had been heavily revised by Long. A large black hardcover, it was critically well-received and attained a degree of commercial success. A revised version (ISBN 1-58366-043-7) was issued in 2004.

 

[GreatLemur]

Right, but that's not mechanical balance, that's compartmentalizing the encounters to make up for the mechanical imbalance. E.g., Frodo always gets attacked by 1HD goblins, while Aragorn always gets attacked by 10HD orc warblades.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm not sure there really is a mechanical fix for the situation--not if you want to keep the characters' abilities appropriately different--but compartmentalizing works nicely, and can be done in any game.

 

[Felon]

Huh. Never had that experience myself. I think it really depends on the particular campaign.

One of the most fun characters I ever ran was a brick/alien gladiator type who was very tough vs physical attacks...but no more resistent to energy attacks than a talented normal.

I've run PCs with almost no attack abilities...like a private eye who was virtually invulnerable, but his only offense bigger than a STR15 punch was his Desert Eagle (2d6K).

I never, ever, ever seem to find players who do things like that. They're just myths I read about on the boards.

That's not to say I've never seen poorly-designed characters--virtually every new character is poorly-designed. Then they get the reality check that low defenses aren't acceptable. Just pull any old villain team out of a Champions supplement. You'll see the standard obigatory array of martial artists, energy projectors, bricks, and mentalists. And they all inflict roughly the same amount of damage, so just choosing to avoid the heavy-hitters doesn't work, because everyone hits the same. Likewise, being the guy with the 6d6 punch and/or a 2 SPD is in for a rude shock. But those are choices made out of ignorance, and he's quickly taught how to build a character "right".

I think the worst enemy Champions has is its own material, which tends to perpetuate some of the lamest memes of how to build characters and play the game. In fact, HERO's creator George MacDonald, has some of the most cheesy, min-maxed, no-fun-to-fight characters out there (Firewing, Dr. Destroyer, EuorStar), and I'm not just talking about them being high-point-cost characters. I mean Firewing has an invisible energy blast for the high-DC martial artists, an NND energy blast for the brick, a no-range-penalty armo-piercing blast for the energy porjector, and so forth. If an archetype has an associated defense, then there's a power to circumvent it. Nice to know that no matter how your character's built, you're screwed, eh?

Moreover, there are lot of memes in Champions that aren't universal to the genre. Heroes don't just fight supervillain groups--in fact, villain groups are rather rare. The mastermind archvillain isn't alwayss more powerful than all his minions put together--Dr. Doom and The Red Skull aren't powerhouses. Not every brick is a hulking, deformed 25-pt non-concealable Distinctive Features freak--for every Thing or Hulk, there's a Superman or Wonder Man (or Woman). And there are more archetypes than brick, martial artist, egoist, and energy projector. In short, you have to unlearn a lot that the game teaches you indirectly.