Champions RPG

[Fedifensor]

True BUT it is REALLY hard to teach new players (at least for me)... might just be because I know the system but when I talk about it to new players I just see their eyes glazing over. I like M&M well enough and its cool...

The #1 mistake you can make when introducing someone to HERO is starting with character generation. Hand them a pregenerated sheet with the combat maneuvers already listed on it. I know a local HERO GM that runs at all the cons, and he's mastered the art of making the characters easy and intuitive to use in his games.

Another things that I am not a huge fan of when it comes to HERO in a super-hero game is that you have to have EVERYTHING spelled out and detailed on your characters for all your powers, unless you allow a Variable Power Pool AND that is a whole other can of worms in my mind

I handle it with a combination of the Power skill and withholding 1 XP per game session. If the character wants to do something different with their powers, they can make a Power skill roll. If they start doing it a lot, I would have them use the withheld XP to buy the power.

 

[Eosin the Red]

Don't "no" me. There is a revised 5th edition, which is why there are cheap 5th-edition books out there.

He didn't no you. He "no'd" a factual error in your post. You said "months" when, in fact it was 3 years.

 

[Eosin the Red]

Wow, the thread was so interesting and on topic yesterday... before the those with post- traumatic road rage jacked in to knock the things they no longer enjoy.

Hero and M&M can both add insane dimensions to your game. Some fans of either system seem to find that the best way to promote their "fave" is to knock the competing systems. Heee yaaah. Have at it.

If the OP is looking to seriously buy into a superheroes game, the best bet would be to drop the dime on supplements for both systems (and a few point books to boot). M&M and Hero both offer specific perks and liabilities which is best for the OP depends on what he/she wants in a support material.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

If the OP is looking to seriously buy into a superheroes game, the best bet would be to drop the dime on supplements for both systems (and a few point books to boot). M&M and Hero both offer specific perks and liabilities which is best for the OP depends on what he/she wants in a support material.

Yeah, just because I cant find enough people to play a Champions game doesnt mean that all of my HERO GAMES supers materials go to waste. There's still alot to use from those books and Vice Versa. I mean, I have a preference (HERO) and I have specific problems with M&M based on personal tastes (or distastes) for mechanics but it's not a bad game. In fact it's a good game, there are just some things about it that are very close to being deal breakers for me.

Some of us can comment on games and things that they dont like about a game without slagging the game itself, some people just are just incapable of that i guess.

 

[Jim Hague]

Wow, the thread was so interesting and on topic yesterday... before the those with post- traumatic road rage jacked in to knock the things they no longer enjoy.

Hero and M&M can both add insane dimensions to your game. Some fans of either system seem to find that the best way to promote their "fave" is to knock the competing systems. Heee yaaah. Have at it.

If the OP is looking to seriously buy into a superheroes game, the best bet would be to drop the dime on supplements for both systems (and a few point books to boot). M&M and Hero both offer specific perks and liabilities which is best for the OP depends on what he/she wants in a support material.

Agreed. And to be clear - while HERO isn't my cup of tea, it's a fine system; just too crunchy for my tastes. MnM is (obviously, if you check my .sig) my system of choice. They've got their strengths and weaknessnes. I think your recommendation's a good one - HERO and GR are both excellent companies with top-notch products, and both are entirely worthy of your gaming dollar.

 

[BkMamba]

20 is not the average.

I am going to keep this short and sweet because I do not have a lot of time. Open up your copy of CKC and look at the 29 characters who are built on 350 points. Then open up your copy of Champions and look at the 8 characters who are built on 350 points in that book. You are going to see a lot of them with a PD and/or ED higher then 20. See that guy called in Champions called Ironclad with the 25/28 Defense? See Pulsar with the 23/27 Defense? Are you saying that Steve Long does not know the rules of his own game when he wrote those characters. Here is a secret for you. If you average all the Champions PDs and EDs they come out to 20.3 - that is with some with a value higher then 20 and some with a value lower.

This isn't an issue of breaking rules. The issue is that you're slanting your comparison by pitting an attack that would be on the low end for even a 150pt Fantasy HERO character against a tough 350pt superhero. 5d6 is only barely more dangerous than a household electrical socket in HERO. That's totally bogus.

It is not bogus. It is just the fact that HERO is broken at lower damage and M&M is not.

That you're dismissing Advantages and Active Point totals makes this discussion even more pointless.

I am not dismissing Advantage I am just saying it is pointless to include them. M&M has "Advantage" too. You want to make your 5d6 NND? I can make M&M's +5 Damage Alt Save Fort. Basically every Advantage that is in HERO has an M&M counterpart so there is not reason to include them.

Thing is, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make.

The point I am trying to make is that while you might limit all of your 350 point characters to a 20 Defense, the rules do not. Go through the 37 examples I have listed above and you will clearly see that.

 

[buzz]

Hero and M&M can both add insane dimensions to your game. Some fans of either system seem to find that the best way to promote their "fave" is to knock the competing systems. Heee yaaah. Have at it.

FWIW, I regret allowing myself to get sucked into the derailment, and offer apologies to the OP. This was an extremely helpful thread at first.

M&M, B&V, HERO, T&J, WGP, Capes, Wild Talents... all great choices. It's a really awesome time to be a SHRPG'er.

 

[Fedifensor]

I am going to keep this short and sweet because I do not have a lot of time. Open up your copy of CKC and look at the 29 characters who are built on 350 points. Then open up your copy of Champions and look at the 8 characters who are built on 350 points in that book.

How about both of you look at the part of the book where it says that HERO is a gamer's toolkit? The 20 DEF is a recommendation - the only real restrictions are what the GM is comfortable with. Some GM's prefer a gunslinger-style where 2 hits with an average damage attack will drop most characters, others set the attacks and defenses where the average character can take 3-4 hits before dropping (perhaps more if a post-segment 12 recovery is involved), and "brick" characters can take a LOT of punishment. It's all up to you.

It is not bogus. It is just the fact that HERO is broken at lower damage and M&M is not.

I've played HERO at both heroic and superheroic levels, and HERO is not broken at lower damage. It does require familiarity with the system to properly balance attacks versus defense in lower power campaigns...I don't know your personal experience, but you might have had a GM who didn't have the comfort level to deliver.

The point I am trying to make is that while you might limit all of your 350 point characters to a 20 Defense, the rules do not. Go through the 37 examples I have listed above and you will clearly see that.

You are correct, the rules do not limit you. And that is a strength of the rules, not a weakness.

 

[buzz]

If you average all the Champions PDs and EDs they come out to 20.3 - that is with some with a value higher then 20 and some with a value lower.

:checks books:

Yup, you're right. The point guidelines I was citing even say 20/10r is the "typical" Def of a super at the 350pt level. I was totally wrong arguing that point.

Dangit! Oh, well.

It is just the fact that HERO is broken at lower damage and M&M is not.

This I still don't buy, though. But I stated why above, and don't want to keep getting the thread off track. Thanks for indulging me, Bk. Apologies again to the OP.

:goes off to prep my Star HERO game:

 

[SteveC]

It is not bogus. It is just the fact that HERO is broken at lower damage and M&M is not.

I'd be careful about saying this. As someone who has a lot of experience with Hero, and also likes M&M, Hero is most definitely not broken at those levels: it's working as it's designed. A 5D6 attack will most likely not harm a character with 20 defenses, but is theoretically can do so. The fact that it works this way is an intended feature of the system, just like in M&M a low powered attack can hurt a much more powerful character.

It just depends on which way you prefer damage to work.

The point I am trying to make is that while you might limit all of your 350 point characters to a 20 Defense, the rules do not. Go through the 37 examples I have listed above and you will clearly see that.

The 20 point limit that Buzz is talking about is indeed a limit, for PCs and for characters at a certain power level with an average DCV value. If you have a lower DCV or lower than average Speed, it is certainly possible to up your defenses, which is what you usually see. It's just like the tradeoffs for Toughness versus Defense that you have in M&M.

To give my opinion in general on this subject, coming from a veteran of both Hero and M&M, the games are similar in a lot of ways, but they have some different design goals behind them. Both games are well written, but they are designed to do different things. I'd recommend looking at Sidekick and the M&M pocket rules to see which one makes more sense, to you, and then trying both to see which works better in actual play.

It's just my $.02.

--Steve