Change in Charisma Description

[Clint_L]

"I have a high Cha."
"Oh, is it your magnetic personality?"
"No, as it notes in the rule book, it could be based on attractiveness, I'm just smoking hot."
"Oh, ok cool."

Thats it.

Okay...so what is their charisma against a blind person? Or a person from another species? Or who just has a different definition of "smoking hot"? Maybe someone of a different orientation, or who is asexual? I would suggest to this player that their definition of charisma is incoherent.

Or, if that really is their sole reason, then their charisma only counts as high when they are trying to make, say, a persuasion check against someone who holds similar standards of beauty and might find them attractive. But against most others it will be a 3 because, sorry, but by their own standards charisma depends entirely on how attractive you are to the other person/creature/cosmic entity.

Also, they are good at sorcery because they are "smoking hot"?

Yeah...incoherent.

Edit: this is another problem with tying charisma to attractiveness. Beauty is not objective. It is absurd to suggest that someone who is attractive to some humans is therefore also appealing to an ogre, a dwarf, a black pudding...

But my bottom line is that this BS message, that how you look is the most important thing about you, gets repeated enough in the real world without it needing to be in the game. It does actual harm on a vast scale.

 

[Irlo]

What do we gain from including beauty as a component of CHA?

"I have a high Cha."
"Oh, is it your magnetic personality?"
"No, as it notes in the rule book, it could be based on attractiveness, I'm just smoking hot."
"Oh, ok cool."

Thats it.

Okay. I don't see the appeal. That's not a positive addition to the game (IMO).

It's an odd notion that good looks alone can make a person influential, persuasive and suited for leadership. It's not reflective of actual human interactions. I don't think it adds anything of value to in-game fantasy interactions.

 

[Lanefan]

Okay...so what is their charisma against a blind person?

Flip it around - what's their charisma vis a vis a deaf person?

Or a person from another species?

Now that's a much better question; Charisma very much should vary between species. For example a Dwarf might be Charisma 18 in the eyes of other Dwarves but only 16 in the eyes of Humans (which makes its game score 16, as game scores are set from a Human baseline), merely 14 in the eyes of Elves, and about -2 if trying to negotiate with a Duergar.

Or who just has a different definition of "smoking hot"? Maybe someone of a different orientation, or who is asexual? I would suggest to this player that their definition of charisma is incoherent.

Orientation has little if anything to do with it. I'm a straight man but I can still tell an attractive guy from a non-attractive one.

Or, if that really is their sole reason, then their charisma only counts as high when they are trying to make, say, a persuasion check against someone who holds similar standards of beauty and might find them attractive. But against most others it will be a 3 because, sorry, but by their own standards charisma depends entirely on how attractive you are to the other person/creature/cosmic entity.

You seem to be taking the idea of appearance being a part of Charisma and turning it into appearance being the whole of Charisma. It ain't.

Also, they are good at sorcery because they are "smoking hot"?

Probably not, but then again I've never bought into the idea of Charisma as a spellcasting stat. It can, however, help or hinder any spell or ability that deals with fooling/charming/persuading others, including turning undead.

But my bottom line is that this BS message, that how you look is the most important thing about you, gets repeated enough in the real world without it needing to be in the game. It does actual harm on a vast scale.

Problem is, whether you like it or not, it's a fact of life that in reality attractiveness makes a difference in how people both perceive you and initially react to you. And yes, once that initial reaction has passed attractiveness becomes much less of a factor as magnetism, force of personality, cheerfulness, etc. take over and as those interactions progress beyond non-verbal and into conversation and so forth.

 

[Scribe]

Okay...so what is their charisma against a blind person? Or a person from another species? Or who just has a different definition of "smoking hot"? Maybe someone of a different orientation, or who is asexual? I would suggest to this player that their definition of charisma is incoherent.

Or, if that really is their sole reason, then their charisma only counts as high when they are trying to make, say, a persuasion check against someone who holds similar standards of beauty and might find them attractive. But against most others it will be a 3 because, sorry, but by their own standards charisma depends entirely on how attractive you are to the other person/creature/cosmic entity.

Also, they are good at sorcery because they are "smoking hot"?

Yeah...incoherent.

Edit: this is another problem with tying charisma to attractiveness. Beauty is not objective. It is absurd to suggest that someone who is attractive to some humans is therefore also appealing to an ogre, a dwarf, a black pudding...

But my bottom line is that this BS message, that how you look is the most important thing about you, gets repeated enough in the real world without it needing to be in the game. It does actual harm on a vast scale.

I hate to break this to you, but most of the abstractions in this game, dont work when you look at them too closely. Its all incoherent, if you choose to make it so.

But my bottom line is that this BS message, that how you look is the most important thing about you, gets repeated enough in the real world without it needing to be in the game. It does actual harm on a vast scale.

Literally nobody is saying its the most important thing about you, or your character. Not even close.

 

[Irlo]

You seem to be taking the idea of appearance being a part of Charisma and turning it into appearance being the whole of Charisma. It ain't.

The post that Clint_L was replying to did suggest that appearance could be the whole of Charisma.

"I have a high Cha."
"Oh, is it your magnetic personality?"
"No, as it notes in the rule book, it could be based on attractiveness, I'm just smoking hot."
"Oh, ok cool."

Thats it.

 

[Scribe]

The post that Clint_L was replying to did suggest that appearance could be the whole of Charisma.

Could be, for me.

Problem?

 

[Charlaquin]

So I can make a character, supported by the rules, who has a sky high charisma, because I'm an Adonis, so handsome, the gods themselves blush in my presence.

You can already do that though…

 

[Charlaquin]

So that people have more options for what can go into Charisma, and for those (like me) who prefer a little more verisimilitude. Nothing is removed by this, so I don't see why people are against it in a game. If you think attractiveness can't have anything to do with Charisma, ignore that word on the list.

I don’t think it can’t have anything to do with it, in fact I think it often does. I just don’t see how the specific inclusion of language connecting Charisma to appearance adds anything to the game, since you’re already perfectly free to decide that your character’s Charisma is directly related to their appearance. But I do think it has the potential to give ammo to people who want to insist Charisma must be related to appearance.

 

[Irlo]

Could be, for me.

Problem?

Lanefan seemed to have not noticed that Clint_L was replying directly to a post that did make appearance the entirety of Charisma. I thought the context was important.

And no - it’s no problem for me if at your table you allow appearance to be the entirety of Charisma.

I’d rather not have it an option either explicitly or by implication in the written rules.

 

[Scribe]

You can already do that though…

Not technically, as physical appearance is not included in the description, based on the OP.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don’t think it can’t have anything to do with it, in fact I think it often does. I just don’t see how the specific inclusion of language connecting Charisma to appearance adds anything to the game, since you’re already perfectly free to decide that your character’s Charisma is directly related to their appearance. But I do think it has the potential to give ammo to people who want to insist Charisma must be related to appearance.

Technically, you already are perfectly free to decide that you're character's Charisma is directly related to their ability to maintain a perfectly-kept lawn.

 

[James Gasik]

Technically, you already are perfectly free to decide that you're character's Charisma is directly related to their ability to maintain a perfectly-kept lawn.

And that explains Samwise Gamgee.

 

[Clint_L]

Not technically, as physical appearance is not included in the description, based on the OP.

You character can be as beautiful as you want. If you want to consider it part of their charisma, fill your boots.

 

[Scribe]

You character can be as beautiful as you want. If you want to consider it part of their charisma, fill your boots.

And you could make a character as ugly as sin, be as charismatic as they get on 'undefinable magnetism'.

So whats the issue? Its rhetorical, I know what believe the issue is, but I disagree it is actually one.

Therefore, we can amicably disagree.

 

[Clint_L]

I just googled "most charismatic people in history" and the first entry gave me:

1. Napoleon Bonaparte
2. Fidel Castro
3. Winston Churchill
4. Mahatma Gandhi
5. David Koresh
6. Adolf Hitler
7. Martin Luther King Jr.
8. Malcolm X
9. Nelson Mandela
10. Teddy Roosevelt
11. Eva Perón
12. Aung San Suu Kyi

I went further down the page - tons of lists, citing hundreds of different people. Few of them particularly attractive by Hollywood standards. Quite a few of them notably the opposite. It seems that for most people, charisma =/= beauty.

So the claim that beauty is a part of charisma is harmful, not well supported, and totally illogical in a universe in which most sentient beings belong to a plethora of distinct species. Yet, if you still want your character to beautiful as part of your charisma, the rules let you do that. So I'm not seeing what the issue is.

Edit: for good measure, here are various dictionary definitions:

"the magnetic and charming personal quality that draws people to someone"
"a special personal quality or power of an individual making him or her capable of influencing or inspiring large numbers of people"
"the ability to attract the attention and admiration of others, and to be seen as a leader"
"a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure"
"a special quality conferring extraordinary powers of leadership and the ability to inspire veneration"

 

[Charlaquin]

Not technically, as physical appearance is not included in the description, based on the OP.

So? Since when has D&D been limited how by what the rulebooks explicitly say you can do?

 

[Charlaquin]

Technically, you already are perfectly free to decide that your character's Charisma is directly related to their ability to maintain a perfectly-kept lawn.

I mean, sure, if you want to.

 

[Ashtagon]

tbh, I'd make exceptional beauty/ugliness into a feat/flaw pair. It would modify your effective Charisma for people who would generally find a person of your gender and species desirable. For everyone else, a really easy Wisdom check (if anything at all) would tell them that you have that feat, but it won't affect any dice rolls against them.

 

[Scribe]

So? Since when has D&D been limited how by what the rulebooks explicitly say you can do?

Why ignore the premise of the thread? Why is it seemingly so difficult a concept of wanting something mentioned as part of the description?

 

[Aldarc]

Why ignore the premise of the thread? Why is it seemingly so difficult a concept of wanting something mentioned as part of the description?

Because many want to keep it out of the description.