D&D (2024) Change in Charisma Description

[Scott Christian]

Physical strength is tied to size and gender certainly more than beauty is tied to charisma and in a more objectively measurable fashion as well. Should your strength score be based on your size and gender - or to put it more plainly, should we limit how strong small and female characters are allowed to be, so we more accurately reflect practical reality and measurable traits? Would improving the "realism" here be an improvement in the game itself?

But the definition of strength they have proposed allows for female characters to be just as strong. The definition is as follows: "natural athleticism, bodily power," "athletic training," and "the extent which you can exert raw physical force." Of those definitions, only the last one would correspond to gender in the real world. We all have seen gymnasts with incredible natural athleticism. We all have seen female MMA fighters with incredible athletic training. We have all seen people of small stature have incredible bodily power.

That's my point. See how all these stretch the definition beyond, "I am the hulk." That is what I wanted for charisma.

 

[le Redoutable]

Thank you for pointing out that you did address the problem of a universal definition of beauty in your OP, but you did not actually solve that problem. Your response, to paraphrase," is that "there must be a solution because there is no evidence that all these disparate creatures think of each other as ugly."

I'm setting aside your assertion that "of all the adventure paths and NPCs created by WotC, there is never a character that spouts [insults about another species being ugly]" because neither you nor I can feasibly check that claim, though the burden of proof would be much easier for me, since I would just have to find one example.

But your claim itself is an assertion, not an argument. One issue is that you don't actually present any positive evidence for your claim, and your contention that there is an absence of counter evidence could be explained in many ways that do not lead to your conclusion that there must be a universal standard of beauty. For example, how much extraneous dialogue in general do adventure paths contain? As well, maybe (probably) in a world full of disparate sentient creatures they have generally learned that what is attractive to them is not what is attractive to others, and so there is no point in an Elf commenting that, say, a Tortle is not sexy to them because duh.

The other issue, is that if there is some such undefinable universal standard for beauty, the fact that neither you nor I can say what it is means that it could be anything. Which again takes us back to letting the player decide.

in the Fashion Spheres there are ( well, I speculate ) a universal standard for looks

 

[Charlaquin]

It is perhaps a reflection of social mores, but that is not a bad thing.

Physical strength is tied to size and gender certainly more than beauty is tied to charisma and in a more objectively measurable fashion as well.

I think you mean it’s tied to sex. And really, it’s just tied to size, which itself is tied to sex.

 

[Charlaquin]

But the definition of strength they have proposed allows for female characters to be just as strong. The definition is as follows: "natural athleticism, bodily power," "athletic training," and "the extent which you can exert raw physical force." Of those definitions, only the last one would correspond to gender in the real world. We all have seen gymnasts with incredible natural athleticism. We all have seen female MMA fighters with incredible athletic training. We have all seen people of small stature have incredible bodily power.

Even if strength was about raw muscle mass and nothing else, it would be entirely possible for female characters to be just as strong as male characters, because while adult males are stronger on average than adult females, there are plenty of individual exceptions. And that’s just in humans, there’s no reason that average has to hold true for all humanoid species.

 

[ECMO3]

But the definition of strength they have proposed allows for female characters to be just as strong. The definition is as follows: "natural athleticism, bodily power," "athletic training," and "the extent which you can exert raw physical force." Of those definitions, only the last one would correspond to gender in the real world. We all have seen gymnasts with incredible natural athleticism. We all have seen female MMA fighters with incredible athletic training. We have all seen people of small stature have incredible bodily power.

That's my point. See how all these stretch the definition beyond, "I am the hulk." That is what I wanted for charisma.

And the definition of Charisma allows for Ugly characters to be just as charismatic.

We have seen no professional female MMA fighter that can take on a male MMA fighter of equal size and bodily power is heavily influenced by size, gender and although I did not mention it in the last post itis influenced by age as well. We have not seen people with a small stature with bodily power that can rival an olympic weightlifter for example. That just does not exist in the real world.

 

[Scribe]

And with this turn, the threads on its way.

 

[ECMO3]

I think you mean it’s tied to sex. And really, it’s just tied to size, which itself is tied to sex.

No that is not true.

It is tied to both gender and sex. It is tied to gender through social constructs in the same fashion beauty is tied to charisma.

It is also not just size, size is a component and perhaps a larger component but among similar size athletes; men will routinely and almost universally outperform women in any strength related athletic contest. There is only one MMA fight between a woman and man of the same size that I know of and the man battered the woman. It was not even a contest. The only times it is a contest is when the man is either smaller or older than the woman.

We can debate the reasons that is the case, but we can't debate that it is a truism in the real world and a D&D world reflective of it would have those traits tied into strength.

 

[Charlaquin]

No that is not true.

It is teid to both gender and sex. It is tied to gender through social constructs in the same fashion beauty is tied to charisma.

Strength really is not tied to gender. Being a man does not automatically make a person stronger, nor does being a woman automatically make them weaker. I know from experience, having been both at different points in my life. Granted, there are social gender norms and expectations related to strength - people don’t typically expect most women to be very strong, and women may face ridicule for being unusually strong, or men for not being so. That’s not the same thing as saying strength is tied to gender though.

It is also not just size, size is a component and perhaps a larger component but among similar size athletes; men will routinely and almost universally outperform women in any strength related athletic contest. We can debate the reasons that is the case, but we can't debate that it is a truism in the real world.

Men and women with similar muscle mass in the same muscle groups will perform similarly in tasks involving performance with those muscle groups. Testosterone and estrogen just affect body development differently, so adult females are more likely to be smaller than adult males and to have different distribution of muscle and fat in different areas of their body. Males also tend to build muscle mass more easily because testosterone promotes hemoglobin development, which leads to more oxygen flow to the muscles. But point being, you’re confusing correlation with causation. Yes, there is a notable difference in average strength between people of different sexes, but the cause of that difference is not the people’s sex itself; rather, puberty affects physical development differently for people of different sexes, and that in turn affects strength.

 

[Scribe]

Men and women with similar muscle mass in the same muscle groups will perform similarly in tasks involving performance with those muscle groups.

What are the corresponding records for Olympic power lifters?

Men and women DONT have similar muscle mass, as the sexes are biologically different.

Now, that said, does this forum have an "Ignore Thread" function?

 

[Scott Christian]

And the definition of Charisma allows for Ugly characters to be just as charismatic.

As I have stated a dozen times. The hag, the beholder, etc. That is because the other parts of the definition make it viable. But it does not make it for characters to say they have high charisma because they are beautiful.

We have seen no professional female MMA fighter that can take on a male MMA fighter of equal size and bodily power is heavily influenced by size, gender and although I did not mention it in the last post itis influenced by age as well. We have not seen people with a small stature with bodily power that can rival an olympic weightlifter for example. That just does not exist in the real world.

Measurements using strength in D&D are numerous and diverse - hence, the definition they use. The lone skill attached to the ability offers these examples in the PHB:

• climbing a sheer or slippery cliff
• jump an unusually long distance
• struggle to swim in treacherous current
• break free of bonds
• push through a tunnel that is too small
• force open a lock or door
• hang on to a wagon
• tip over a statue
• keep a boulder from rolling

Many of these require different types of strength, ones that match the diverse definition of strength; pushing through tight passages, breaking bonds, swimming, and climbing are just the ones they listed that don't require powerlifting capabilities.