D&D (2024) Change in Charisma Description

[Charlaquin]

There are weight classes so you can compare similar size individuals. For example looking at the last Olympics:

The womens gold medal winner in the 64kg class, Charron, lifted a combined 236 kgs

The mens gold medal winner in the 61kg weight class, Li lifted a combined 313 kg

This was a man outlifting a slightly larger woman by 77 kgs (155 lbs).

Charron's 236 kg Gold Medal winning effort would be dead last against the lighter men that competed in Olympic weightlifting and would be 49 kgs below the LOWEST weight lifted by a man in the olympics (a man lighter than her).

On the flip side if Li competed as a woman he would have won a gold in every single weight class except the woman's heavyweight division and in the heavyweight division he would have won a silver medal. He would have beat all but one woman in the entire 2020 Olympic field in every single weight class, even when those women were up to 60lbs heavier than he is.



There are. But I think there are far more pretty looking buffoons and ugly con artists.

Weight class compares total body weight; it doesn’t account for where that weight comes from; the specific distributions of muscle and fat, which are significantly impacted by sex. If you have an adult male and an adult female with similar mass in the same muscle groups, they will perform similarly on tasks that depend on use of those muscle groups.

 

[Irlo]

Sorry ECMO3, you missed the point. I was discussing the athletics skill in a D&D game. You roll and add athletics. Inside athletics, you get to add your strength. If she were scaling a thirty-foot wall, that climber would beat 99% of the men. Why? Because she has part of the strength's ability definition: "athletic training" and "bodily power."
My response to you was that the strength ability in D&D is not tied to gender. They purposefully gave it a broad definition so as to allow for the non-hulk character.

What about the other way around? Would you expect DMs to accept that a low-strength PC could be described as having athletic training and bodily power but lacking in the third component (the ability to exert raw physical force)?

Would it be a problem to have two characters, each with athletic training and bodily power, with highly disparate strength scores? One is strong due to described bodily power; one is weak despite having described bodily power.

 

[ECMO3]

Weight class compares total body weight; it doesn’t account for where that weight comes from; the specific distributions of muscle and fat, which are significantly impacted by sex. If you have an adult male and an adult female with similar mass in the same muscle groups, they will perform similarly on tasks that depend on use of those muscle groups.

But women and men with similar mass do not have the same or even similar muscle groups, that is the point.

In the example from the Olympics that man liften more than dozens of women that weighed more than him, including some that weighed A LOT more than him.

The difference is muscle mass is primarily due to sex.

 

[Charlaquin]

But women and men with similar mass do not have the same or even similar muscle groups, that is the point.

Right, because sex affects development and distribution of muscle (especially during puberty).

In the example from the Olympics that man liften more than dozens of women that weighed more than him, including some that weighed A LOT more than him.

Because that weight was distributed differently between their bodies.

The difference is muscle mass is primarily due to sex.

Right. So, as I said, strength is tied to muscle mass, which is affected by sex. That’s quite a different relationship than what you said, which was “strength is tied to gender.”

 

[ECMO3]

Sorry ECMO3, you missed the point. I was discussing the athletics skill in a D&D game. You roll and add athletics. Inside athletics, you get to add your strength. If she were scaling a thirty-foot wall, that climber would beat 99% of the men. Why? Because she has part of the strength's ability definition: "athletic training" and "bodily power."
My response to you was that the strength ability in D&D is not tied to gender. They purposefully gave it a broad definition so as to allow for the non-hulk character. Therefore, when you ask:

The answer is no. Because that would limit a character. My suggestion was to expand a definition. To give players more choices. Hence, charisma should be more than eloquence, leadership, and confidence.

Ok. A couple points.

I understand about the athletic skill, but strength affects more than that including carrying capacity, and jumping. Strength checks to force a chest or door are common.

Moreover, how does keeping beauty out of Charisma limit a character? You can build a beautiful character or an ugly character without worrying about how it affects your charisma.

To use your statement they purposely made Charisma about eloquence, leadership and confidence to allow for an old, ugly charasmatic character.

 

[ECMO3]

Yes of course it correlates, my argument was that you’re mistaking correlation for causation.

I think most of our disagreement is I was using the word "tied" to indicate correlation (perhaps incorrectly?) and you were reading it to indicate causation. I also used the word size in my original post and you clarified muscle mass which is a subtle but different meaning.

After reading your post, I don't think we actually disagree on much. And we apparantly don't disagree on the main point - that beauty should not be part of Charisma.

 

[Vaalingrade]

D-did we temporarily detour into sex and/or gender tied to STR? The ol' -4STR canard?

Is there no awful past RPG trope this idea can't link itself to?

Roll for height and weight?

 

[Charlaquin]

I think most of our disagreement is I was using the word "tied" to indicate correlation (perhaps incorrectly?) and you were reading it to indicate causation. I also used the word size in my original post and you clarified muscle mass which is a subtle but different meaning.

After reading your post, I don't think we actually disagree on much. And we apparantly don't disagree on the main point - that beauty should not be part of Charisma.

Yeah, I think you’re right. Sorry for getting hung up on the specific phrasing.

 

[le Redoutable]

Confidence ===> Morale Rating

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mod Note:

FYI: discussions of modeling RW human male & female biology in RPGs generally doesn’t end well. (I’ve been in a few of those myself.)

So why don’t we drop it.