Change in Charisma Description

[Scribe]

Reminder: It is not being said that attractiveness is or should be the only definitive metric of Charisma.

Only that it's noted as a POSSIBLE aspect.

We now return you all to saying attractiveness has no bearing on how people interact.

 

[James Gasik]

In the real world, of course physical attractiveness has bearing on our interactions. There's no reason it has to be the same way in a fantasy world. "Elves are pretty" is right in their description, but no one is forced to react positively to a random elf.

In fact, player characters aren't forced to interact with Charisma at all, since they are completely allowed to dislike someone with high Charisma! So, as a result, only NPC's care about physical attractiveness anyways, and that's the DM's prerogative to take into account, if at all.

 

[Clint_L]

I don’t know how you got that idea about success from what I said. I you look at my entire post I think you will see that isn’t what I am saying. My point was letting people decide if attractiveness (which I defined quite broadly) was part of their charisma score, but it shouldn’t have to be. I also pointed to where physical beauty could be a minus rather than a plus

Charisma has a direct bearing on success in numerous situations in game, such as a persuasion check, not to mention entire character classes. People already can decide if they want their character to be attractive, which is fine, but that's not what the 2e description does. It mandates attractiveness as one element of charisma: "attractiveness certainly plays a role." I both disagree that that is necessarily true, but more importantly think that it is an actively harmful concept that we need to stop reiterating to young people.

Edit: Every year we deal with students with eating disorders linked to their self-image. You are not going to convince me that requiring players to consider attractiveness as an element of a key ability is needed in D&D.

 

[Xamnam]

Also what CHR does mechanically matters. Obviously this varies by edition but in 2e at least, it is your reaction adjustment, your loyalty base and also your max number of henchmen. The latter isn't just going to be about what you look like (you can make an argument that physical attractiveness might be a factor in reaction rolls, but I think for keeping henchmen over the long term, that is probably going to be about other leadership qualities---attractiveness could be a factor, people might stick with someone they find appealing longer, but I think that is probably lower on the list than other things like how that person makes them feel).

Also some things ought to be contextual. A PC who is a politician or bard might take a penalty to CHR if they gain a facial scar. Someone who leads a troop of hardened soldiers might gain a bonus.

This is also how I approach it, and why I generally don't think of looks as factor of that in my games. I would say the vast majority of situations where a Charisma modifier comes up, attractiveness, without even getting in to how personally variable that assessment is, doesn't really have a bearing. It's really just persuasion, and maybe deception. The one that really makes me throw it out is the idea of Charisma Saving Throws. Those resistances, like Banishment, Calm Emotions, Zone of Truth are all about exerting your will over your own being, and maintaining your sense of self. It just doesn't work for my brain to have beauty affect that.

I do like your last sentence though, in slight contradiction to that.

 

[Scribe]

Edit: Every year we deal with students with eating disorders linked to their self-image. You are not going to convince me that requiring players to consider attractiveness as an element of a key ability is needed in D&D.

The premise of the thread is literally not requiring you to do such.

 

[Irlo]

We can imagine an attractive character with a low charisma, and we can imagine an unattractive character with a high charisma. We can imagine a rakish scoundrel who falls for any handsome face, and we can imagine a vain prince who is suspicious of any handsome rivals. We can imagine beholders who don’t care what you look like. What do we gain from including beauty as a component of CHA?

I don’t want players to think they can’t describe their PCs
as imagine them, regardless of CHA, and I don’t want DMs telling players they can’t be attractive without a 15+ ability score. I don’t want DMs policing how the characters role play. Let the dice rolls and the ability modifiers determine how effective the PC’s action are. They won’t be able to fake a high charisma through role play any more than they can fake a high dexterity.

 

[Scribe]

What do we gain from including beauty as a component of CHA?

"I have a high Cha."
"Oh, is it your magnetic personality?"
"No, as it notes in the rule book, it could be based on attractiveness, I'm just smoking hot."
"Oh, ok cool."

Thats it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Charisma has a direct bearing on success in numerous situations in game, such as a persuasion check, not to mention entire character classes. People already can decide if they want their character to be attractive, which is fine, but that's not what the 2e description does. It mandates attractiveness as one element of charisma: "attractiveness certainly plays a role." I both disagree that that is necessarily true, but more importantly think that it is an actively harmful concept that we need to stop reiterating to young people.

Edit: Every year we deal with students with eating disorders linked to their self-image. You are not going to convince me that requiring players to consider attractiveness as an element of a key ability is needed in D&D.

Personally I would have it say ‘can play a role’ as I think that is more accurate but certainly plays a role in that context is fairly minimal: they are trying to minimize how important appearance is to CHR

But again look at my whole post, I am not stopping with the 2E definition in my view on charisma and appearancre. The view I expressed is should be able to be a part of a character’s score if the player thinks it fits. But charismatic characters don’t have to be good looking

 

[Cadence]

We can imagine an attractive character with a low charisma, and we can imagine an unattractive character with a high charisma. We can imagine a rakish scoundrel who falls for any handsome face, and we can imagine a vain prince who is suspicious of any handsome rivals. We can imagine beholders who don’t care what you look like. <snip>

I don’t want players to think they can’t describe their PCs
as imagine them, regardless of CHA, and I don’t want DMs telling players they can’t be attractive without a 15+ ability score. I don’t want DMs policing how the characters role play. Let the dice rolls and the ability modifiers determine how effective the PC’s action are. They won’t be able to fake a high charisma through role play any more than they can fake a high dexterity.

I am totally on board with all of that.

<insert snip>

What do we gain from including beauty as a component of CHA?

As a mandated component? Nothing, I think that would be bad.

As a possible component? What @Scribe said. Or are we banning people who get their way just on looks from existing in the game world.

On the other hand, I think I get what @Clint_L is saying, and in my own imaginary-heartbreaker-in-my-head I don't have a Charisma (or Int or Wis) stat, in part for related reasons. Do the kids who feel they are unpopular feel that way because of appearance, or because it's their personality too? (I replaced them with Perception and Will Power, tentatively with nothing in place of Charisma for usual interactions).

I can see a slippery slope with Str, Dex, and Con being problematic too (do we value athletes more?)... but I'm for keeping those.

 

[Charlaquin]

Bu

Physical appearance isn't listed as one of the characteristics that goes into Charisma in the description, and the OP thinks it should be. That's what they are suggesting.

But to what end?

 

[Scribe]

Bu

But to what end?

So I can make a character, supported by the rules, who has a sky high charisma, because I'm an Adonis, so handsome, the gods themselves blush in my presence.

 

[Lanefan]

Elves, who do not automatically receive any bonus to Charisma, nor are made to have a minimum Charisma "appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races".

And that's a big hole in the rules. Elves should have a minimum Charisma - or better yet, the Elvish bell-curve for Charisma should go from something like 6-19 instead of the Humans' 3-18. The bonus would then follow from their having on average a higher Cha score.

Note also that Elves receive no real benefit to their "haunting beauty" in game. Not a word is said about them gaining advantage on Charisma checks due to it. It's certainly not a racial trait. Further, the PHB also tells us "Elves are slow to make friends", and "reply to petty insults with disdain and serious insults with vengeance". Oh and they're also "haughty".

While I'll grant there are mitigating traits to accompany these, the truth is, I don't particularly find those traits all that Charismatic. Charisma and appearance are not linked by the rules, and to link them would require far more revisions to the game than a single word in the ability score description.

I'm not so sure about that last statement. The only 'revision' needed, other than adding a couple of words to the Charisma write-up, would be to general player perception of what elements go into making up one's Cha score.

 

[Maxperson]

No. I want my scar faced pirate captain that looks fugly, but has a commanding presence over his crew. I want a very attractive PC who just happens to not be very confident and is often lost in the crowd.

You have a hard time wrapping your head around the beauty part because its not actually the beauty. ITs the person using their charisma to accentuate it.

This. Just bring comeliness back and give it a bonus from high charisma.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Bu

But to what end?

So that people have more options for what can go into Charisma, and for those (like me) who prefer a little more verisimilitude. Nothing is removed by this, so I don't see why people are against it in a game. If you think attractiveness can't have anything to do with Charisma, ignore that word on the list.

 

[Bedrockgames]

This is also how I approach it, and why I generally don't think of looks as factor of that in my games. I would say the vast majority of situations where a Charisma modifier comes up, attractiveness, without even getting in to how personally variable that assessment is, doesn't really have a bearing. It's really just persuasion, and maybe deception. The one that really makes me throw it out is the idea of Charisma Saving Throws. Those resistances, like Banishment, Calm Emotions, Zone of Truth are all about exerting your will over your own being, and maintaining your sense of self. It just doesn't work for my brain to have beauty affect that.

I generally allow it as a factor when it feels right for an NPC or when it is an important part of a players character. But like so many have pointed out, charisma is way more than how you look (and even when it is about how you look that spans such a huge gamut of things----it really just seems to mean you have 'something' whether that is beauty, a gentle resting expression, a look of determination in the face of the horrors of war). And it can also be about how you sound: having a particularly moving speaking voice, for example or having a weathered voice that lends credibility to your statements.

The way I look at it is I try to think of the people I think of in the real world who I would say are Charismatic. If you look at historical figures, politicians, celebrities, many of them aren't what most would call attractive (many are, but many are also just interesting looking or have a look that engenders trust and relatability).

I do like your last sentence though, in slight contradiction to that.

Thanks. I think these kinds of things are important (and probably more the domain of ad hoc bonuses and rulings). But I think Something that is often regarded as an asset (i.e. physical beauty) is going to be a disadvantage in some circumstances. Comedy is a good example of this. It is common to hear comedians say that being attractive is actually a negative for a comedian. I tend to agree because I have noticed people who are fit and good looking don't make me laugh as readily as other comedians (and most of the comedians who do make me laugh, usually have something quirky and memorable about their appearance, but not something I would say is physical beauty). Obviously good looking people can be funny. And they can be successful comedians. But people don't have the expectation of laughing at jokes when they see someone who is handsome or beautiful appear on stage, the way they might if they see someone who looks more like a Larry David or something. So it would be a bit of an uphill climb.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And that's a big hole in the rules. Elves should have a minimum Charisma

Unless people read the Complete book of Elves and realize beauty isn't even skin deep and they're mostly scumbags.

 

[Cadence]

And that's a big hole in the rules. Elves should have a minimum Charisma - or better yet, the Elvish bell-curve for Charisma should go from something like 6-19 instead of the Humans' 3-18. The bonus would then follow from their having on average a higher Cha score.

"appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races".

They're good at Persuasion for certain races, but not particularly Deception, Intimidation, Performance, or spells that rely on CHR. So it doesn't feel to me based on that description they deserve a higher CHR. And if they do, then the fluff should justify those other things?

 

[Cadence]

Unless people read the Complete book of Elves and realize beauty isn't even skin deep and they're mostly scumbags.

I mean, it is "Murder Hobo, the Game".

 

[James Gasik]

"appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races".

They're good at Persuasion for certain races, but not particularly Deception, Intimidation, Performance, or spells that rely on CHR. So it doesn't feel to me based on that description they deserve a higher CHR. And if they do, then the fluff should justify those other things?

Well some kinds of Performance, at least. All that Dex comes in handy.

 

[Clint_L]

The premise of the thread is literally not requiring you to do such.

"please hear me out: Charisma should include beauty."

That's the third sentence of the first post.

I do not want beauty even mentioned with charisma, for all the reasons I have given. Stick with the status quo, which is working fine. Character attractiveness is part of character creation along with height, weight, ect., and that's where it belongs. Totally in the player's hands.