Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Not quite no-one; I support the idea, but would replace "beauty" with "appearance".
D&D (2024) Change in Charisma Description
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
If someone has a Cha score of 11 yet is player-narrated as being drop-dead good-looking, is that player prepared to self-narrate or roleplay the character as having a somehow less than stellar personality or persuasiveness otherwise, in order to account for the Cha score?
If yes, all is good. If no, there's a problem.
Best (and most entertaining) example is a now-retired character from my current campaign who styled himself as the wannabe God of Fashion. Impeccably dressed and groomed at all times, he'd strut around like a peacock setting an example for all to follow - or so he hoped. However, this guy couldn't utter two sentences without offending everybody in the room, regardless of who was in the room at the time (and was brilliantly roleplayed as such!) thus explaining his Cha score of 6.
Vaalingrade
Legend
Again, none of this makes a use case for this change being a positive one.
The only thing I'm seeing is arming a DM to be even more pedantic about ability scores than some of them try to be now.
The only thing I'm seeing is arming a DM to be even more pedantic about ability scores than some of them try to be now.
Mad_Jack
Legend
There's just one problem with what you wrote there...
It seems like you're conflating the fact that numerous species and cultures can manage to coexist in the same communities with somehow having developed a common standard for what constitutes "beauty". You seem to be saying that because there's no official language in the game rules or lore that says "X group finds group Y to be unattractive", it must mean that everyone shares the same ideas of what is attractive.
Which quite simply isn't necessarily true - as they say, "Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence"...
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One may find a dragon beautiful, another not. Yet the dragon has the same charisma to both.
I have had high Charisma characters who were imposing, commanding, had presence, but weren't beautiful. My nest example of this was years ago seeing on Broadway a show of Sir Patrick Stewart doing a reading of Dicken's A Christmas Carol. It's him, not in costume, with a simple table, chair, and stool. Just him. He got up there and started to do the reading.
No one in the whole place even coughed during either act.
He was magnetic. He had such presence and gravatas. It was astounding. He had Charisma oozing out of his ears.
But he's not beautiful of visage. Put a picture of him alongside more conventionally beautiful people and show them to someoen who hasn't seen him and is just basing on that picture and he won't get rated above the others.
I also know people who are very fair of face and form but just damned annoying to deal with. They don't have Charisma, even though they have beauty.
Charisma can contain beauty, but does not need to. And vice versa.
I have had high Charisma characters who were imposing, commanding, had presence, but weren't beautiful. My nest example of this was years ago seeing on Broadway a show of Sir Patrick Stewart doing a reading of Dicken's A Christmas Carol. It's him, not in costume, with a simple table, chair, and stool. Just him. He got up there and started to do the reading.
No one in the whole place even coughed during either act.
He was magnetic. He had such presence and gravatas. It was astounding. He had Charisma oozing out of his ears.
But he's not beautiful of visage. Put a picture of him alongside more conventionally beautiful people and show them to someoen who hasn't seen him and is just basing on that picture and he won't get rated above the others.
I also know people who are very fair of face and form but just damned annoying to deal with. They don't have Charisma, even though they have beauty.
Charisma can contain beauty, but does not need to. And vice versa.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
I use the Cha score and skills as a filter...
A cha 8 no skills in cha trained character played by the most charasmatic fast talking inspireing player gets told to roll it.
That same player with a 16 cha and 1 trained skill might get some auto passes on the exact same attempt.
A player that can't come up with what to say or do but knows the general concept of what they are trying to do and they are trained and have an okay or good cha will get that same pass the guy above did...
I can justify this with the fact that back in the 90s when chris would use the dumbest most cliche pick up lines he would get phone numbers... no matter how well thought out or meaning Ross was with the best approach would likely not... the difference was stance and charisma. (Side note I am SOOO glad none of us are begging for numbers at clubs anymore)
Mercurius
Legend
If you want beauty to be a part of CHA at your table, go for it. What else is there to say about that?
But...because, like the rest of us here at ENWorld, I'm overly verbose and opinionated, one thing to keep in mind is that each of the ability scores is a gestalt of different qualities, and sometimes things aren't directly related. For instance, DEX includes both hand-eye coordination and agility - two qualities that don't always correlate in actual individuals. Look at many baseball players: big, slow dudes with incredible hand-eye coordination. David Ortiz or Frank Thomas, for example. Ted Williams is arguably the game's greatest hitter ever, which implies he had some of the most incredible hand-eye coordination in modern history, and he wasn't exactly fleet of foot.
And a further point: ability scores are just that: abilities. I used to think they were wrongly named and should, instead, be called "attributes." But the high STR halfling supports the word "ability": STR isn't simply raw physical power, but the ability to utilize physical force with control and focus. Now obviously it doesn't make sense to have a low STR character be a big, hulking dude; but there is some play: you could have a 16 STR body builder who is a bit awkward and an 18 STR wiry halfling who is very athletic and has incredible muscle control.
I think someone up-thread made a good suggestion, that it is up to a player to decide what their ability scores mean. So a character with a high CHA can decide how that works: whether they are beautiful and know how to use it, or plain looking but with a strong presence, or any variation. But to say that CHA must include beauty ignores the reality of charismatic individuals in human history, and the lack of charisma that some beautiful people have. We can call this the "Adolf Hitler - Megan Fox Quandary." In same cases, physical attractiveness can be off-putting, if the person is arrogant, indifferent, etc. Or sometimes someone is incredibly beautiful, but lacks a force of presence.
But...because, like the rest of us here at ENWorld, I'm overly verbose and opinionated, one thing to keep in mind is that each of the ability scores is a gestalt of different qualities, and sometimes things aren't directly related. For instance, DEX includes both hand-eye coordination and agility - two qualities that don't always correlate in actual individuals. Look at many baseball players: big, slow dudes with incredible hand-eye coordination. David Ortiz or Frank Thomas, for example. Ted Williams is arguably the game's greatest hitter ever, which implies he had some of the most incredible hand-eye coordination in modern history, and he wasn't exactly fleet of foot.
And a further point: ability scores are just that: abilities. I used to think they were wrongly named and should, instead, be called "attributes." But the high STR halfling supports the word "ability": STR isn't simply raw physical power, but the ability to utilize physical force with control and focus. Now obviously it doesn't make sense to have a low STR character be a big, hulking dude; but there is some play: you could have a 16 STR body builder who is a bit awkward and an 18 STR wiry halfling who is very athletic and has incredible muscle control.
I think someone up-thread made a good suggestion, that it is up to a player to decide what their ability scores mean. So a character with a high CHA can decide how that works: whether they are beautiful and know how to use it, or plain looking but with a strong presence, or any variation. But to say that CHA must include beauty ignores the reality of charismatic individuals in human history, and the lack of charisma that some beautiful people have. We can call this the "Adolf Hitler - Megan Fox Quandary." In same cases, physical attractiveness can be off-putting, if the person is arrogant, indifferent, etc. Or sometimes someone is incredibly beautiful, but lacks a force of presence.
Clint_L
Hero
Let me clarify: mandating it as part of charisma is I think what folks are reacting against. It already can be part of charisma if the player so decides. What is gained from mandating it? That just creates drama - it seems to be micromanaging how other people want to play. And with an unpopular idea, no less.
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