D&D (2024) Change in Charisma Description

Jahydin

Hero
@BookTenTiger
Considering the hag, the fact she has a high Charisma despite her appearance really goes to show just how awe inspiring she must be in person.

If Charisma isn't tied to appearance at all, it kind of robs the creature of that fact.

Edit: I'm also beginning to see how high Charisma could very well be both impressively attractive or repulsive. Interesting...
 
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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Are there any people IRL who would always have been judged attractive in every culture on earth over the past 200 years?

Would it be easier or harder to imagine happening in a world with many different species?

If there were some "universal measure of physical beauty" as some have suggested might develop, is there any reason to expect it would at all be related to what we currently use to define attractiveness?

Does human based attractiveness being part of cross-species attractiveness (from Thri-Kreen to Warforged) work better if types/races/species are essentially masks?

Given the number of disparate things it's tied to (Intimidation, Persuasion, etc ..) does it almost work better as an unexplainable thing akin to VtM's Presence discipline? Would that explain both the hag and the nymph and working across species?
 

Jahydin

Hero
Are there any people IRL who would always have been judged attractive in every culture on earth over the past 200 years?
Again, I don't think many people here are saying Charisma is just a measure of attractiveness. But out of all of the intelligent races, there are some universal markers of civility, trustworthiness, and strength of character that can come from appearances.

Like if my character rubbed horse manure allover their body, certainly that would lower my CHR bonus right?
 

le Redoutable

Ich bin El Glouglou :)
@BookTenTiger @Aldarc @Charlaquin
We're still discussing appearance is just one of the many factors that can contribute to Charisma right?

I understand strong reactions to "Charisma IS your appearance", but not so much it might influence it.

I just saw on the Paizo forums at least one person renamed Charisma "Willpower", haha.
well, add to Willpower, Leadership and Morale Rating the sub-stat Appearance ( and you're just one step to mix Cha to the five other stats )
( I would personally link Appearance to Cha x Int ... )

:)
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Willpower exists in some fuzzy place between Wisdom and Charisma. We don't have it as an attribute though, outside of resisting mental influence, because nobody wants to be told they lose agency over their character because they're don't have the guts to perform an action (and now I'm having PTSD over arguments about bravery in the Halfling thread).

The thing I still can't get over with this discussion is it feels like people want to say individuals have high Charisma "because they're pretty". I don't think that's actually the case.

I think what people want is for there to be some quantifiable advantage for beauty that they can point to, because, as I admitted in my first post in this thread, people do react better to beautiful people. But because standards of beauty might not translate from species to species (Elves notwithstanding), this quickly starts to break down. What a human finds attractive might not hold true for a Warforged or a Tortle or a Bugbear.

Charisma as an ability score rates how, well, "charismatic" you are, withshallow or superficial factors like physical appearance stripped away. "But", some hypothetical person might argue, "wouldn't a pretty person with high Charisma be, you know, more influential?".

And again, maybe. But not necessarily. Hags, for example, are said to hate beauty in all it's forms. So how are they going to react to a beautiful Nymph? Not well!

And of course, as previous brought up in the thread, what about circumstances where the beauty of a person cannot be beheld? Does the Warlock's Charisma drop because they've surrounded themselves with a cloud of darkness? Some might think so, lol, but the Shadow terrifies the stuffing out of crooks when he can't even be seen!

5e sidesteps all of these issues by ignoring physical appearance, leaving it up to the DM to rule on a case by case basis if it should matter. And there are compelling reasons why they shouldn't, given that we have the "unearthly beauty that affects many races" of the Elves right in the PHB. You'd have to rebalance all the races and monsters with a "hotness factor" that modifies their Charisma positively or negatively.

I mean think of how many monsters there have been over the decades that are described as "a beautiful woman, but..." where they could be half animal, or demonic, or what have you.

And then you get to the part where you're dictating to a player what their character should find attractive, which is a huge morass of "nope".

You want to say your character is charismatic and hot, go right ahead, nobody is going to stop you. But saying your character is charismatic because of their hotness is always going to bring up these debates because it's a complex issue.

People always used to tell me how overwhelmingly hot Angelina Jolie was. And I just didn't see it. "She's ok, I guess", I'd say. And that's not getting into how many celebrities are considered attractive who have the personalities of wet cardboard.

To repeat another poster, Charisma is Objective, Appearance is Subjective.
 

Irlo

Hero
Are there any people IRL who would always have been judged attractive in every culture on earth over the past 200 years?
No.
Would it be easier or harder to imagine happening in a world with many different species?
If it's easier to imagine, it's because the players are ignoring the answer to that first question above and chosing a superficial perspective that undermines nuance and verisimilitude in world-building. That's a valid choice for a game, but it's not to everyone's taste.
If there were some "universal measure of physical beauty" as some have suggested might develop, is there any reason to expect it would at all be related to what we currently use to define attractiveness?
No.
Does human based attractiveness being part of cross-species attractiveness (from Thri-Kreen to Warforged) work better if types/races/species are essentially masks?
Yes.
Given the number of disparate things it's tied to (Intimidation, Persuasion, etc ..) does it almost work better as an unexplainable thing akin to VtM's Presence discipline? Would that explain both the hag and the nymph and working across species?
From what little I know of VtM, yes and yes.
 


James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
No.

If it's easier to imagine, it's because the players are ignoring the answer to that first question above and chosing a superficial perspective that undermines nuance and verisimilitude in world-building. That's a valid choice for a game, but it's not to everyone's taste.

No.

Yes.

From what little I know of VtM, yes and yes.
Unfortunately, VtM has an Appearance attribute that is separate from Charisma and Manipulation, which just creates it's own kind of havoc. It's also worth noting that Appearance does almost nothing in the system; there are very few examples of Appearance rolls in the rulebooks, and it's mostly tied to a (largely ignored) subsystem where your maximum social dice allowed when first meeting someone is your Appearance rating ("Yes, I know you have 9 dice of Charisma and Etiquette, but it says right here since you only have Appearance 3, you only get to roll 3 dice, no matter how suave you are").
 

le Redoutable

Ich bin El Glouglou :)
The thing I still can't get over with this discussion is it feels like people want to say individuals have high Charisma "because they're pretty". I don't think that's actually the case.

I think what people want is for there to be some quantifiable advantage for beauty that they can point to, because, as I admitted in my first post in this thread, people do react better to beautiful people. But because standards of beauty might not translate from species to species (Elves notwithstanding), this quickly starts to break down. What a human finds attractive might not hold true for a Warforged or a Tortle or a Bugbear.

Charisma as an ability score rates how, well, "charismatic" you are, withshallow or superficial factors like physical appearance stripped away. "But", some hypothetical person might argue, "wouldn't a pretty person with high Charisma be, you know, more influential?".

ohhh Positive Encounter Reaction Adjustment !
it also pertains to Cha !
( well, as far as Ad&d's uses )
 

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