Change Shape and size changes

[Cam Banks]

I had somebody ask me about this over on the Dragonlance forums, and even after reading through all of the SRD and FAQ, I couldn't get a definitive answer.

Let's say I am able to use the Change Shape special ability to assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant. If I go from Medium to Large, what effect does this have on ability scores? A Str bonus and Dex penalty? Or nothing at all?

And if my sword becomes Large with me, does it deal more damage? Am I really Large, or do I just look like it?

Cheers,
Cam

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

This is not what you want?

Alternate Form (Su): A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:
... * The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution....

Or, from Enlarge Person spell description:
The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.

A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target’s speed.

Enlarge Person specifically says your weapon increases in size with you, so its damage also increases.

 

[frankthedm]

And if my sword becomes Large with me, does it deal more damage? Am I really Large, or do I just look like it?

You are large, your stuff is not. The ability will say if it makes your stuff any bigger.

 

[Cam Banks]

Change Shape is not the same as Alternate Form. Here's the relevant info:

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using change shape reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use change shape to take the form of a creature with a template. Changing shape results in the following changes to the creature:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Nothing in there about the effects of size changes. Ability scores remain the same, so what about conditional effects based on size? Equipment increases in size to match, so can we assume the damage also changes?

Cheers,
Cam

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

If the equipment increases in size, then, yes, the damage would increase accordingly as well.

You would definitely become Large and gain +4 to grapple and whatnot because those have purely to do with being bigger than someone else. Most events that take into account size have a respective table of effect.

If it explicitly says that your ability scores do not change, then they don't seem to change.

Is there anything else here I'm missing?

 

[Cam Banks]

If the equipment increases in size, then, yes, the damage would increase accordingly as well.

You would definitely become Large and gain +4 to grapple and whatnot because those have purely to do with being bigger than someone else. Most events that take into account size have a respective table of effect.

If it explicitly says that your ability scores do not change, then they don't seem to change.

Is there anything else here I'm missing?

The primary area of contention is the "increasing size" table on page 291 of the Monster Manual, which may only apply to size increases with additional Hit Dice. Other instances of size changes, such as with Enlarge, specify different ability score adjustments.

I'm just trying to make sure that others aren't seeing anything extra in here than I, since I'm also of the opinion that there are no ability score changes based on size increase.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

The primary area of contention is the "increasing size" table on page 291 of the Monster Manual, which may only apply to size increases with additional Hit Dice.

I believe this stat block only applies when increasing the HD of a monster causes it to also increase in size (such as a dragon maturing or whatnot).

Per your description, it sounds like very little actually changes - you're mostly gallivanting around as a typical monster of that type.

If you wanted to give any ability score bonuses based purely on a size increase, I think the Enlarge Person description is the place to look, but from the description of the ability you gave, I don't think you get any changes to your ability scores.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The general consensus about the stats staying the same is correct.

My group was once flummoxed as to why they couldn't for the life of them grapple Melusine, the nobleman's petite wife, and force her into the church. Then they discovered that she was actually a dragon using Change Shape and managing to hold onto her 31 Strength despite the new form