Changes to Devils and Demons

[Gez]

I did no such thing. However, there was a very clear distinction between the two evil outsiders in both Planescape and all 3.x books, which to me had to mean that you are unfamiliar with material on the matter.

Yeah, in function but not in form. There were no real reason why most fiends looked how they looked, and unless you knew the specific type of fiend you couldn't say, on seeing one, if it was a tanar'ri, yugoloth, baatezu, or other miscellaneous fiend family.

In short, if you take a, say, Paelirion, should that be a devil or a demon? Or maybe a daemon? A particularly ugly Slaad?

 

[pogre]

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't that the point? [commenting on someone else's complaint about change] They're not trying to reconcile with material already out there, they're trying to clean up material already out there and make it make more sense.

I'm with Moog---I really dislike the Great Wheel, and as far as I'm concerned in my campaign, a fiend is a fiend is a fiend, and I make no distinction between devils, demons, yugs, oni, or any other variety. So I'm actually cool with them creating a reason for me to care about the distinction, because previously I never have.

I'm with Moog and Hobo.

There is nothing stopping WOTC with creating a Planescape setting using the old assumptions of that setting and reintroducing erinyes, etc.

 

[Glyfair]

Please don't ascribe actions to overly jumpy Christians. The devils killed their god. They didn't kill God. Someone who can't make that distinction is not likely to need to go this far into the books to find better stuff to object to.

Indeed, this reminds me of the first article on the Nine Hells that had stats for Satan/Lucifer. The difference is that in this version they killed him instead of Asmodeus taking over after "driving him off."

 

[StarFyre]

ugh

I do not like these changes at all.

But, since I use basically the planescape styled cosmology of all the game worlds, universe, far realm, etc...I can deal with it. Will just convert (the 3.5E versions over to 4E and give them whatever weapons i think they should have...ie. balor a vorpal sword and whip, marilith - 6 magical weapons, pit fiend nothing unless it really wants one, etc).

Also, i preffered how tanar'ri were created by the raw essence of chaos/magic while the baatezu were created from teh blood as asmodeus when he fell.

Sanjay

 

[Shade]

I'm with Moog and Hobo.

There is nothing stopping WOTC with creating a Planescape setting using the old assumptions of that setting and reintroducing erinyes, etc.

And providing stats for succubi and other demons and devils "retconned" into different, conflicting types? Doesn't that fly in the face of the "simplification" process to have two different monster entries for the same exact creatures?

Like I posted upthread, the earliest we can expect anything Planescape-related is 2010.

Not cool.

 

[grimslade]

I wonder if alignment is getting a real overhaul. The big difference between devils and demons was the law-chaos spectrum. Planar fluff aside, allow me this for brevity, there is a new paradigm in town. If the new morality is shades of grey, you might need to redefine some iconic alignment creatures. Think of the modrons! The Modrons!

 

[sckeener]

I think I would have had less of a problem if they had made the erinyes and the succubus a yugoloth that played/manipulated everyone.

I don't like the fallen angel aspect; however as has been pointed out several myths include such an instance.

Before I worry too much, I'd like to find out what is happening to alignment. If alignment has been changed greatly then the whole great wheel picture is changed anyway.

 

[Sammael]

Think of the modrons! The Modrons!

Fat chance of that, since Andy Collins hates modrons.

 

[drothgery]

I don't think I like much of what I've seen of 4e core 'fluff'; I'm hoping that stays out of my Eberron because 4e 'crunch' sounds pretty good.

 

[Zaukrie]

Not sure how I feel, other than I like the fact that the planes had different types of outsiders associated with them. Also, some demon lord types should have the appearance of starting/being humanoid, shouldn't they? Some demons should be corrupted/fallen humans that attained great power, shouldn't they? I really, really like the fluff in both the recent demon and devil books, two very well received books, I believe. Why change that fluff?