Changes to Devils and Demons

[Gentlegamer]

I learned a lot about D&D from the pages of Dragon Magazine (at my public library) long before I actually was able to buy any of the official rules. Combined with my voracious reading/playing of the old Endless Quest series of books, I was "ready" for the D&D world by the time I stared playing "for real."

 

[Lurks-no-More]

I'm a bit torn on these news. On one hand, I'm a Planescape fan, and these changes obviously don't fit that cosmology; on the other hand, the changes seem pretty good on their own. So, at the moment, I'm Neutral w. Optimist tendencies.

As for the Erinyes / Succubus thing, it's true they've been redundant in (A)D&D from the beginning. One personal explanation I had for them was that Erinyi were specifically created devils, intended to mimic the original and wildly successful succubae.

Their methods of predation were different, as well: the succubus corrupts you (and the society around you) by tempting you with lust and making you feel everything is acceptable, so that in the end you're doing unmentionable things to small animals, breeding half-fiends and generally having an Abyssal time.

The erinyes, in contrast, focuses on making you (and the society) repressed, guilt-ridden and ashamed of every sexual thought or action, until nothing is acceptable, and therefore all sins are equal; this leads to exact same things as the Abyssal seduction, except that you're going to maintain a veneer of excessive respectability and enjoy your damnation considerably less.

 

[delericho]

You're right. It doesn't simplify the game. The fluff is not rules so there is no simplification to be had.
But have you ever had a new player ask "What's the difference between demons, devils and yugoloths?" I have and I energetically began explaining the Great Wheel and the Blood War. The new player's eyes glazed over and I relented on the deluge. "So they have different alignment teams. Gotcha." Isn't that magical. ;P

May I suggest an alternative?

"The Devils are like the Vorlons, the Demons the Shadows. They're both immensely powerful, and ancient, and Evil, but where the Devils want to enslave the multiverse in a realm of absolute Evil and order, the Demons want to drag everything down into seething madness. Obviously, they can't both get what they want, so they're constantly at war.

"And the Yugoloths? Fiendish mercenaries, playing both sides against the middle."

The weakness of the analogy is that Babylon 5 finished some ten years ago, but the rest is quick and simple enough for almost everyone to grasp immediately... and probably covers about as much as the average character would know of the distinction anyway.

 

[Victim]

Their methods of predation were different, as well: the succubus corrupts you (and the society around you) by tempting you with lust and making you feel everything is acceptable, so that in the end you're doing unmentionable things to small animals, breeding half-fiends and generally having an Abyssal time.

The erinyes, in contrast, focuses on making you (and the society) repressed, guilt-ridden and ashamed of every sexual thought or action, until nothing is acceptable, and therefore all sins are equal; this leads to exact same things as the Abyssal seduction, except that you're going to maintain a veneer of excessive respectability and enjoy your damnation considerably less.

I'd tend to think that individual seducer fiends would vary their approach based on the target's beliefs, morals, and culture.

 

[delericho]

That's not the point. If it doesn't make sense to new players, it needs to be justified somehow or junked. (IMO, and apparently the O of the 4E design team.)

Well, fair enough. But the more they design the game for the benefit of people who don't even play the game, the less this long time player wants to play in their new world order.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Well, fair enough. But the more they design the game for the benefit of people who don't even play the game, the less this long time player wants to play in their new world order.

But then, the long time player can ignore fluff, because he knows the alternative. As I do, when I play Eberron. Or FR.

This somehow rougher, less intricate implied setting has its own kind of charm. Especially if you open the box first, and get a sense of wonder due to the implied setting, because you don't know anything else about it.

And for that, together with "Points of Light", I daresay that the new direction is a better fit. Though they should keep the erinyes.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Soel]

I dig it thus far.

I suggest making demons be on an entirely different level as devils, more like primal forces and less connected to deities and reborn (if you will,) souls. Mechanically, perhaps like the Hordlings were (table-based appearance and abilities,) with the current named types being the group names of ones with similar traits. You could alternately make a handful of templates to slap on pre-existing base forms (named types,) for different results.


I hope we lose alignment as a rules mechanic as well.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

For someone who reads no d&d fiction what so ever, 3.5 demons and devils were so sterile and arbitrarily different, it made me want to vomit. I like this new revision as it its closer to real life religions, and has more a familiarity. Its a good revision and its not pointless.

 

[delericho]

But then, the long time player can ignore fluff, because he knows the alternative. As I do, when I play Eberron. Or FR.

Of course. If I don't like the fluff I can use the old stuff, or write my own, or whatever. If I don't like the rules changes, I can house rule whatever I feel I need to.

But there comes a point where I declare that it's just not worth it, and stick with the previous edition, or write my own system whole-cloth, or just give up entirely. None of which are particularly appealing options.

 

[Eridanis]

Just to stick my oar in.

I think it's time for a change. Shake stuff up. Change is good. I endorse post #287.

I'd love to ask the 4E design team if your story hour had some inspiration for this decision. This new approach is different from Wyre's cosmology, but I would not be surprised if the approach you took with your world made them take the hard look at the current system, and ask themselves "can we make this make more sense, and cooler?"

Even if they responded with "Sepulcrave who?", I think this approach creates a whole new level of flavor and storytelling possibilities.