Changes to Devils and Demons

[grimslade]

Another thing that bothers me about this change is the implication that:

a) this simplies and makes the demon/devil split more logical
b) that this will therefore make it easier for new players to learn the game

I have to refute these assumptions because:

a) since when does logic have anything to do with demons (in their historic and current incarnation at least) which are embodiments of chaotic evil - they don't HAVE to make sense, sicne chaos allows all sorts of forms, even hot human looking women demons. *

b) has anyone actually heard a potential new player say "this D&D game is just too complicated, I can't tell demons apart from devils, and espeically those women ones - they're just the same, so how can some be demons and some be devils"? Personally, I think clearing up tough rules and makeing the game more faster are ways to get new players into the game easier, but this change is not going to impact new players in any way.

You're right. It doesn't simplify the game. The fluff is not rules so there is no simplification to be had.
But have you ever had a new player ask "What's the difference between demons, devils and yugoloths?" I have and I energetically began explaining the Great Wheel and the Blood War. The new player's eyes glazed over and I relented on the deluge. "So they have different alignment teams. Gotcha." Isn't that magical. ;P
There is a lot of contradictory backstory to evil outsiders. A nice simple story to differentiate devils and demons would be nice. The new player's response now might be "Devils are trapped masterminds and demons are vicious brutes. Gotcha." Still not flavorful or accurate but it doesn't need a lengthy canon lecture to get there.
Planescape cosmology -philes will want a setting book to do justice to 10+ years of development. Even if 4E stayed completely loyal to previous editions fluff the MM descriptions would have errors due to brevity. Why not make a clean break with a new edition and make the Blood War and aligned planes a setting book or a new incarnation of MotP.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Just to stick my oar in.

I think it's time for a change. Shake stuff up. Change is good. I endorse post #287.

 

[Alzrius]

I disagree. Changing something to make a sticky point better is good, but this seems like change purely for it's own sake; that they want demons and devils to just feel new - that I don't like, as it's the appearance of a substantive change without being one.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

If the familiar alignment system is going away in 4E, then shouldn't the Great Wheel cosmology follow?

IMO, not necessarily, but it is very reasonable.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I disagree. Changing something to make a sticky point better is good, but this seems like change purely for it's own sake; that they want demons and devils to just feel new - that I don't like, as it's the appearance of a substantive change without being one.

Maybe they just feel this new idea is cooler and fresher than the old? Honestly, sometimes that's all the reason for change an artist/writer requires.

That doesn't mean people have to like it, of course, and there are certainly plenty of other reasons for change. But I think there's a difference between "change for its own sake" and "change because the creators felt the new idea was better."

 

[Branduil]

I don't care much for the great wheel, so this is fine by me. In fact it already has my mind thinking of ways to use and modify this for my own.

 

[Pale]

I don't mind this change at all. Planescape was only really around for 1 edition and most of it's cosmology was 'kinda sorta' there for 3rd. The only thing (I think) that really made it was the Blood War and funky names for Demons, Devils and Daemons (Tanar'ri and so forth).

Even then Tanar'ri, Baatezu and Yugoloths were only subsets of a greater whole with more subsets being introduced all the time... which was wonderful, really.

I still have, and use, the Planescape box sets and I have a slew of other fiendish references outside of D&D cannon from Green Ronin and Necromancer Games that I intend on continuing to use no matter where Evil resides. Let the lore contradict itself, I say, it's far more interesting that way and a much more plausable reason for a war between the types. (I'm sure that you fine folk can think of many wars that raged over a "my history/myth is way more accurate than your history/myth".)

I also predict that Shade and BOZ will have an Erinyes conversion up on the conversions board with a plausable back story inside of a month of the 4E MMI release.

 

[Mortellan]

If it isn't broke don't fix it I say.

 

[Lancelot]

I'm open to change, but as many other posters have already said... I'm concerned at the potential invalidation of so much rich prior "fluff".

2e (mainly Planescape) changed a lot of the fluff, as was well pointed-out by a prior poster. The archdevils vanished for a time, demons became tanar'ri, and so forth. But fundamentally, there was room to bring a lot of that stuff back in. There was nothing in Planescape which said that Asmodeus wasn't still there ("Unnamed Lord of the Ninth")... they were still "really" demons... Baator was "really" the Nine Hells...

The same is true of the 3e changes to 2e. Moloch was replaced by the Hag-Countess, who was then replaced by Glasya. But there was some story to explain it. Change is fine, but change with some back-story to help that all-important "suspension of disbelief".

What I'm worried about is if this is a complete retcon to the point that there are no CE succubi any more... and no LE erinyes-that-are-winged-avengers-with-swords. And furthermore, that they *never existed in the first place*. Where did they all go? What happens to the 12 pages of my Fiendish Codex which details Malcanthet and the other succubi lords in detail? Please don't tell me the whole Blood War was just a fever dream, and that no such conflict exists any more...

I'm okay with the change if they provide us with some tools or fluff to help explain it. Maybe the Succubi defect en masse to the devils. Maybe they were diabolic "double-agents" in the Abyss all along! Or maybe there are some Succubus Devils that "defect" and become CE, explaining why they can be found in the Abyss as well. I'm good with any of that, as long as the answer isn't simply: "Succubi aren't found on the Abyss, they never were found on the Abyss, and Malcanthet doesn't exist any more."

Sure, I know that you can have whatever you want for your home campaigns... but it's not quite the same.

Tangent: Hmmm... what does this mean for Graz'zt? If there's a more devilish demon-prince (humanoid form, weapon-using, intelligent, seductive), than I don't know it. Could more than just the rank-and-file troops be "switching sides"???

 

[hong]

What I'm worried about is if this is a complete retcon to the point that there are no CE succubi any more... and no LE erinyes-that-are-winged-avengers-with-swords. And furthermore, that they *never existed in the first place*. Where did they all go?

Already answered.