Changes to Devils and Demons

[Remathilis]

Keep in mind the Erynies as avenger thing came around in 3.5, not in older material.

The erinyes are devils common to Hell's second plane as well as the kind most commonly sent forth to garner more souls. They are female but can appear as male.[snip combat stats]They will peruse evil persons unceasingly in order to take them alive into hell. They will sometimes bargain with other, hoping to tempt them into doing evil.

Habitat/Society: Erinyes are solitary baatezu, rarely wen in groups of any kind. They are cunning and evil, securing their position amongst the baatezu as tempters of mortals. Even though the erinyes we lesser baatezu, they have a special station in the Nine Hells. As tempters, they report directly to the Dark Eight and are outside the normal chain of command.[snip]

As tempters, the erinyes have a special power that none of the other baatezu-even the great pit fiends-have; the ability to pass into the Prime Material plane for short periods of time. They do this to attempt to trick and lure mortals back to the Nine Hells with them- They cannot bring anyone or anything with them when they pass into the Prime Material plane, and they can only bring one person back with them when they pass back into the Nine Hells- They cannot bring back inorganic matter, so victims will arrive in the Nine Hells without possessions. Once on the Prime Material plane, the Erinyes will seek out a mortal to lure back to the Nine Hells. Using its charm person power and its ability to assume a comely male or female form, the Erinyes will try to seduce the mortal. This done, it can transport the mortal and itself back to the Nine Hells.

Mortals so trapped are doomed to die in the inhuman plains of the Nine Hells unless their own magical strengths can save them. When a mortal dies this way, he will become a lemure and be doomed to serve forever as a soldier of the Nine Hells- It is because of this power to tempt and doom mortals that the Erinyes are respected by all baatezu.

{editors note: the write-up in The Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix is nearly identical, except referencing Baator instead of the Nine Hells and some simple word choices. For the purposes of discussion, they are practically identical}

Like their demonic counterparts, the succubi, erinyes seek to tempt mortals into depravity. Unlike other devils, erinyes appear as attractive humans, resembling very comely women except for their huge, feathery wings and sinister eyes. They are about 6 feet tall.

Rumor in the underworld tells that the first erinyes were angels who fell from their lofty heights because of some temptation or misdeed. Now, the skies of the Nine Hells are litterered with their descendants. Erinyes serve as scouts, servants, and even concubines for powerful devils. Unlike other devils, erinyes appear attractive to humans, resembling very comely women or men. They’re not above taking advantage of being mistaken for the celestials that legend says they once were. An erinyes stands about 6 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds.

So you can see, Erinyes as temptress's with different wings WERE the norm until 3.5. Its also easy to see they DO share a similar position in the game: evil winged hawt woman of doom. And since succubi is a more familiar name, guess which one is being kept in 4e...

 

[Wormwood]

Keep in mind the Erynies as avenger thing came around in 3.5, not in older material. <snip awesomeness>

*applause*

 

[Shemeska]

Iiiiiiim a Terlen....

So you can see, Erinyes as temptress's with different wings WERE the norm until 3.5. Its also easy to see they DO share a similar position in the game

Alot of fiends are interested in collecting mortal souls, but they do so in drastically different ways. Should we combine them all?

Should we merge glabrezu into succubi, since they're demonic tempters as well? Perhaps tossing in arcanaloths and harvester devils as well? Rename them as Temptation Fiends, and leave it at that?

Hyperbole aside, there's a point where streamlining jumps the shark. Combining Succubi and Erinyes into one monster risks jumping over, well, this thing:

 

[Shadeydm]

I wonder whats next the powers that be decide that Balors and Pit Fiends are too much alike and decide one of them has got to go? I don't like it.

 

[Aloïsius]

Alot of fiends are interested in collecting mortal souls, but they do so in drastically different ways. Should we combine them all?

Should we merge glabrezu into succubi, since they're demonic tempters as well?

I did not knew that glabrezu were winged beautiful humanoid fiends tempting mortal by seducing them...


Anyway, this whole thing is getting annoying : if I understand correctly, the erinyes is not merged with the succubi, it is replaced by the succubi, because fiends are no more defined by their alignment (because 4e don't care that much about it) but by, gasp, their role.

So, goodbye erinyes, see you later in the MM2. And this time, probably with a very different outlook.

 

[Aristotle]

Interesting... I like it. The story about them killing the god and falling from grace is really similar to my homebrew.

 

[UndeadScottsman]

I wonder whats next the powers that be decide that Balors and Pit Fiends are too much alike and decide one of them has got to go? I don't like it.

Well, unlike the Succubus, who's concept is pretty darn reliant on being able to pass as humanoid, the Pit Fiends and Balors aren't terribly bound in appearance to fulfill their functions.

So I'd expect that if any major thematic changes are going to affect those two creatures, it will simply be making Pit Fiends to look more humanoid and Balors to look more monsterous,

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I am pleased by the implication that devils might show a side of Evil that isn't just about being stupidly violent. Let them be the corrupt diplomats, clawing their way to the top of every pile, through careful planning and manipulation. Let them be the hidden hand behind the overthrow of the king, and the subsequent totalitarian government. Devils should be orchestrating the closing of the orphanage, turning all the orphans out into the street to starve--or steal, and thereby run afoul of the devil-inspired police state.

Let the demons take over completely the role of violent, destructive lunatics, leaving the devils with the role of despicable masterminds.

Evil doesn't always have to be violent. It can also be simply cold, calculating, and determined to take every advantage it can. If they take it in this direction, I endorse the change.

 

[MerricB]

Love it, love it, love it!

The Succubus/Erinyes thing... I understand why they're getting merged. The Erinyes in myth have a far, far stronger role than they've ever had in D&D. They're "just another monster" in 3e. They only really work in a low-magic world in their original purpose. (They come to punish you? I've already lost my family to giants... bring on the Erinyes!)

Cheers!

 

[Nikosandros]

Keep in mind the Erynies as avenger thing came around in 3.5, not in older material.

Aeschylus predates Gygax by a few years...

But seriously, you have a point. The way they were represented in D&D those two monsters were perhaps too similar... I can see the case for dropping one. Hopefully, the Erinyes can come back in alter manual with her proper role restores as we had already argued....